|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Part II. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Coragyps Member (Idle past 761 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Vielen dank, Bernd!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Coragyps Member (Idle past 761 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
The only study I've seen was YEC - from AiG, I think. Probably a poster session at a real geology meeting! The 14C levels were pretty dang low, giving "dates" of 40,000 years old or so. I may have something at home with some leads on this: I'll look if I get the chance this evening. There are certainly paths to creating 14C in diamonds, from either 13C or nitrogen that's present in the diamond, but I have no clue about how much these paths could actually make.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Coragyps Member (Idle past 761 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
It is a little weird to get your head around unless you're used to thinking in terms of the scientific idea of measurement, where every measurement you make has some associated error. Think about using a yardstick to measure the length of the kitchen counter: say you get 83 3/8, 83 1/8, and 83 inches on three tries. They differ because 1) you had to reposition the yardstick twice and 2) there's perhaps 1/16 inch error in your reading of the durn thing any one time. If you dad came over, he might get 83 1/2 inches with your yardstick, and 83 5/16 with his steel tape! Which is "correct?" None of the five, most probably. The "true" length might be 83.263 inches, plus or minus 0.002 inch, but there's still some error there - the +/- 0.002 piece.
Even if you use some kind of super-accurate laser measurer, there will still be some uncertainty in the length. It might be less than a millionth of an inch, but it's still there. Now back to Lake Suigetsu. Some poor grad student counted 38,000 or so little black/white pairs of lines in those cores. There are potential errors there - losing count ( compare counting votes in Florida??), missing bits of core, years when no diatoms grew, so no white layer formed.... etc. The paper makes a estimate as to the size of this sort of error. Pretty small, but there, and estimate-able. Then the researchers sent 250+ little bits of bug wings, leaves, and such, each marked with the count of the varve it was picked from, off to Germany for measurement of the carbon-14 it still contained. Each bit had to be handled and prepared for measurement. The measurement had to be actually run on each. Everything had to be recorded. Every step has its own error associated with it - small, except for misidentification of a sample or two or dyslexia interfering, maybe, but still present. Then we come to putting the two strands together. One of our clocks is the "count the varves" clock, and it might say that the varve we'll call Louie is 15,456 years old - 15,456 pairs below the present lake bottom. And let's say that the estimated error is +/- 444 years. The other clock is the carbon-14 clock. Louie might be 16,001 years old by this measure, which was figured to a first approximation by 1) measuring the 14C in the bug wing 2) assuming constant 14C input into the atmosphere and the bug back then and 3) using the known decay rate of 14C to calculate how long it took to lose 14C from the amount initially in the bug wing down to the amount measured today. Now, when Kitagawa and van der Plicht actually compared these two clocks, an amazing thing happened: they agreed pretty well! (They actually intended in the first place to use the varve clock to correct the 14C clock, since the knew from other studies that the assumption in 2) above wasn't exactly true - 14C doesn't form at a constant rate. Their whole goal was really to provide a measure of how its formation varied in the past. But for the purpose of illustration, bear with me a moment more.) At times in the past when the Earth's magnetic field was weaker than now, more cosmic rays got in to hit nitrogen in the atmosphere, and more carbon-14 was formed. In the Ice Age, when the oceans were colder than now, more carbon dioxide ( and thus more carbon-14) got dissolved in the deep water and thus less was in the air for our Louie bug to pick up. The paper simply uses the varve count to correct the "fast" and "slow" times in the 14C clock caused by this sort of thing. Impressive as the agreement before this correction is, it gets even much more impressive when you go to the footnotes. The clocks of tree rings in Germany and Finland agree. The uranium-thorium dates of corals in New Guinea and in the Bahamas agree. Dates from ice cores in Greenland, Antarctica, Peru, and Kenya agree. It's just a little tough to make that many independent measurements, each made with independent yardsticks, all line up to give the same numbers (each with errors, still) unless the really are all measuring something real. Am I making sense?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Coragyps Member (Idle past 761 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Ned, that is excellent!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Coragyps Member (Idle past 761 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
but you can tell the shape of something by looking at it.
But with a difference in polar vs, equatorial diameters of 43 km out of 12,700, you can't see that we live on an oblate spheroid. Before the space age, that difference had to be measured by pretty-darn-technical surveying methods.
As with the earth orbiting the sun, it's something which can be observed.
Again, how is earth-orbiting-sun distinguished from sun-around-earth? It can't be directly observed without terribly precise telescopic observations. The first such weren't done until 1838.
One could insist that she must be a 4 year old while the other thinks she is only a large 2 year old. Both could argue their evidence but they can't know for sure unless they have been around since the child's birth or they know her parents.
A dentist could be called in to look at her teeth. Someone with experience in early childhood development could check out her language use, conceptual abilities, motor abilities.....etc. A pediatrician could look at bone development. There are probably a few dozen measurements that reliably tell a terrible two from a ferocious four. And yes, there are big two-year-olds that may look older by a couple of measures, but probably never by a majority of them. The same goes for age of the Earth. When a couple of dozen independent lines of evidence all point to one old answer, and only folk stories point to the very different young answer, you nearly have to go with the couple of dozen. Some of these measurements weren't available until recently: radioactivity wasn't known until 110 years ago, and wasn't used for an estimate of the Earth's age until 1910 or so. With the tools we have in 2005, though, the antiquity of the Earth, and the life on it, is even more obvious than earth-around-sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Coragyps Member (Idle past 761 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
The Age of the Earth by G Brent Dalrymple is the standard, but it does get pretty technical in spots. It's also maybe 15 years old now.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Coragyps Member (Idle past 761 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
It covers all the long-time radioisotope methods very extensively - uranium/lead, potassium-argon, etc. Very little to none on carbon-14 and such short-timers. And Dalrymple is one of the leading experts in the world on the topic.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Coragyps Member (Idle past 761 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
I don't know of a book, but
Dendrochronology for a starter and then http://web.utk.edu/~grissino/ for the main course will get you a decent start. Grissino has links to immense amounts of stuff.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Coragyps Member (Idle past 761 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
If you're talking about Dalrymple, yes, there are some pretty rough spots for a non-geochemist. But just the tables of dozens of dates for the same rocks - done with four or five independent methods but still agreeing - are worth scanning through.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024