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Author Topic:   Luke and Matthews geneologies
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 168 (25789)
12-06-2002 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by judge
11-16-2002 6:48 AM


As this is my first posting/response, please forgive me if I am not up to speed on all the right protocals.
This topic of geneology "contradictions" is one (of many) which has led me to ask myself one simple question: does the Bible mean what it says, and say what it means?
The many explainations for the differances in the Matthew and Luke geneologies seem awfully conveluted to me, and based on no real information other than "it just has to be that way." And, while they may in fact be exactly right, it is clear that the text is obviously not harmonious internally.
The actual words of our translations clearly say that both geneologies are of Joseph. That's what they obviously state. If so much explaination is needed to clean up the problem for the average reader, how does the literalist claim the Bible to be a clear statement of truth which needs no tinkering from man, interpretation or re-evaluation of our understanding of it's purpose and meaning for us?
I greatly honor scripture for what it teaches me of the Lord, my need for His grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by judge, posted 11-16-2002 6:48 AM judge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by judge, posted 12-07-2002 12:46 AM shilohproject has replied

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 168 (25805)
12-07-2002 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by judge
12-07-2002 12:46 AM


Hi there! The solution I have proposed is not convoluted. All it requires is that ONE WORD, that being the Aramaic word "gowra" should be translated FATHER instead of HUSBAND.
Because this word has been mistranslated into english ALL the problems occur.
The word "gowra" is used throughout the Aramaic of Matthew in the sense of a FATHER[/B][/QUOTE]
Thank you for your response.
Your solution may be the correct one. If so, it is indeed not conveluted or overly complicated. It does, however, still leave my basic question hanging: are we able to take any of the translations available to us at face value? KJV, so honored by the KJV-only folks, uses the same verbage which seems to lead so many readers to mistrust the Bible as being full of contradictions and problems. This cannot be laid at the feet of so-called "new age" translations.
It brings into question the notion of our English translations as being a reliable rendering of an inerant set of scripture. I do not read/speak Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic, so this issue is one of some importance to me.
Having said that, my own life is greatly enriched by the Bible, even if I cannot take any one translation as wholey reliable. (There are other examples one might mention in this matter.)
The question for the Church to answer, in my mind, is whether or not we fit what we believe to align with a reasonable reading of scripture and what we may observe before our very own eyes, or do we torture scripture into some form it might never have meant to be in, order to fit our own belief systems/dogma?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by judge, posted 12-07-2002 12:46 AM judge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Karl, posted 12-09-2002 7:19 AM shilohproject has replied

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 168 (26044)
12-09-2002 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Karl
12-09-2002 7:19 AM


Quote:
No. I think the question for the church to answer is how to demonstrate the reality of the risen Christ in the world.[/B][/QUOTE]
Thank you for your reply.
I must agree with you that the Great Commission is our primary calling to the world at large. My question, rather, addresses the need within the Church to examine ourselves; because without such an internal, personal testing, we may well fail to achieve the very goal you mention.
Specific to my earlier posting, I was addressing the issue at hand, namely the inerrancy of various Bible translations and how we apply those truths tucked away in scripture to our own lives and, so, attempt to fulfill the carrying of the Gospel to a people in need.
As long as we present a ridiculous offering to the world, we will be ridiculed and rejected, not for the sake of the Gospel (which we know can indeed happen!) but because of our own arrogant claim that we have a monopoly on understanding God, one which seems to ignore obvious, observable truth.
Without self-examination, who among us would ever have felt that still, soft voice move in our spirit? Perhaps some, but not me. And without daily re-examination, how can one remain open to things bigger than himself? And without that humility, how will we "demonstrate the reality of a risen Christ" to a people in need?
These are simply my thoughts. I'm sorry if you are able to dismiss them as "wrong." Your reply served to remind me, as I always should be, of my obligation to others.
Gratitude.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Karl, posted 12-09-2002 7:19 AM Karl has not replied

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 168 (29213)
01-15-2003 5:41 PM


Does it mean what it says and say what it means?
-Shiloh

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-17-2003 5:29 AM shilohproject has not replied

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 168 (29729)
01-21-2003 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by iconoclast2440
01-20-2003 8:39 PM


quote:
Originally posted by iconoclast2440:
Jacob was not of Davidic lineage.

The Jacob who had the twelve sons? He was the father of Judah, who's line David is in.
-Shiloh

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-20-2003 8:39 PM iconoclast2440 has not replied

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 168 (29763)
01-21-2003 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by iconoclast2440
01-21-2003 9:35 AM


quote:
Originally posted by iconoclast2440:
But not part of the prophecy...
Judah is not of the line of David. Come on guys. Learn your biblical history.

Icon,
It is silly to point out that "Judah is not of the line of David" when David is of the line of Judah, and an orthodox understanding of the prophesy goes back much further than David.
(All quotes NASB)
One of the earliest references is found in Genesis 12.2a,3b: Talking to Abram/Abraham, God says, "I will make you a great nation...and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
Again in Genesis 28.14b: Speaking to Jacob, God says, "in you and your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed."
As for Judah himself, in Genesis 49.10 it reads: "The scepter shall not part from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him shall be the obedience of the peoples."
You may not think much of these prophesies, but to misrepresent them is dangerously close to the sort of hogwash some people do with science in order to bolster a failing concept of scripture or biologic history.
On the other hand, if you were unaware of the link between Abraham-Jacob-Judah-David-Jesus in scripture, it would benefit you to study a tad more before telling other folks to learn their Bible history.
(BTW if you would post as a "reply," with or without quote, it would be easier to follow your responses and the thread of the conversation. And I, for one, am interested in what you might have to say.)
-Shiloh (no connection to above mentioned verse)
[This message has been edited by shilohproject, 01-21-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-21-2003 9:35 AM iconoclast2440 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-21-2003 11:08 AM shilohproject has replied

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 168 (29778)
01-21-2003 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by iconoclast2440
01-21-2003 11:08 AM


quote:
Originally posted by iconoclast2440:Lol. Silly? The prophecies are that the messiah will come from the line of David via his son solomon NOT from Judah. Your possition is silly. You need to read the prophecies.
I've studied this material quite a bit. As I mentioned in my post, the orthodox position on the prophesies concerning the Christ is that the promise goes back to Abram/Abraham through Jacob/Israel through Judah through David. Your denial of this does not change the fact; check out the verses I cited. Or you may refer to a Ryrie study Bible, Expanded Edition (Moody Publishing), "Messianis Prophecies" (p.1503 in my copy), where it lists the following "fulfilled" prophesies:
-Line of Abraham
-Line of Judah
-Line of David
-Virgin Birth
-Birthplace:Bethlehem
-Forerunner: John
-King
-Prophet
-Priest
-Will bear world's sins
-Will be ridiculed
-8 others (which I will not list, since my point is not to prove Christ)
[You can find similar material, sometimes with other verse citings,in: Thompson Chain Reference Study Bible (Kirkbride Publishing), "Chart of the Messianic Stars," p.1589 in my copy;or, The Open Bible (Nelson Publishing), "Prophecies of the Messiah Fulfilled in Jesus Christ," p. 1315-1321 in my copy;or, The Three-In-One Concise Bible Reference Companion (Nelson Publishing), "Messiah," p.447 in my copy.]
quote:
Stop. This is not a messienic prophecy. I am tired enough of other bs on these forums please don't come at me with more.
The orthodox position is that it is. This is common doctrine in all of the Christian denominations I know of.
BTW, take it easy, Icon. This is only a discussion. If you're tired of people addressing/correcting/agreeing with your posts, maybe you should stop posting. That is what this is all about.
quote:
Since you are clearly ignorant of scripture i will ignore this. Besides this is better directed at creationists.
My so-called ignorance of scripture is backed up by verse citing and now an external source. My comments regarding your misuse of scripture stands. In this regard you are acting very much like the folks at AiG and elsewhere. Get it right, or learn from correction.
quote:
You need to educate yourself about prophecies Shiloh. The promise made to David was that the messiah would be of his line through solomon by a man.
This is a terribly weak position and truly laughable Shiloh (i am still laughing about the scriptures you gave). To say that the prophecies go back to genesis scriptures while ignoring criteria within those sciptures is a sign of desperation.
Stop the nonsense for a second shiloh and think please.

This is not nonesense. It is simply stating the orthodox position. I have no desperation, because I am not trying to accomplish anything other than to show the mistake in your understanding of the commonly accepted prophesies. Frankly, we have not yet touched on what I might believe.
quote:
If Jesus was not of David's line through Solomon he couldn't have fit with prophecy!
True, but that has nothing to do with my post.
quote:
What you are saying is as ridiculous as claiming you are of the line of David for we are all son's of Adam. Since Adam is the father of all mankind and everyline started from him then by your logic you could say as long as he is human he fufills the prophecy. This is truly absurd. This would be a great example of sophistry Shiloh.
Not at all. First, I said nothing about anyone fulfilling any prophesy, only that the promises run back to Abraham in the orthodox view. I said nothing at all about anyone being part of David'd line.
The absurd thing (bizarre, really) is that you read all that into my post.
quote:
I reiterate; Shiloh you have to understand that prophecies stated the messiah would come from the line of David through Solomon. The only way to achieve this is to have a male descent to pass through the line of David through Solomon.
I do understand, and in this point I agree with you totally. It's not what my post was addressing though.
quote:
Instead of trying to attack my position by declaring i have a weak foundation please try and review the history of prophecy before you
make such outlandish statements.

Since the shoe fits, wear it. You are quite simply leaving out several steps in the prophesy chain. This is all I'm saying.
-Shiloh
[This message has been edited by shilohproject, 01-21-2003]
[This message has been edited by shilohproject, 01-21-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-21-2003 11:08 AM iconoclast2440 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-21-2003 1:12 PM shilohproject has replied

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 168 (29781)
01-21-2003 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by iconoclast2440
01-21-2003 11:08 AM


quote:
Originally posted by iconoclast2440:
-btw can you clearly demonstrate how jesus was either of the line of Judah or David?

Both of the geneologies under dicussion agree on this point: Matthew ch.1 vv.3,6; and Luke ch.3 vv.31,33.
This does not ease the existing problems of inconsistencies in the passages. None of the suggested "solutions" has ever quite satisfied me, e.g. Matt. never says it is Mary's geneology, quite the contrary, and hereditory rights are not passed through the mother anyway, and this particular mother appears to be Levitical in origen, etc.
-Shiloh

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-21-2003 11:08 AM iconoclast2440 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-21-2003 3:24 PM shilohproject has replied

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 168 (29790)
01-21-2003 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by iconoclast2440
01-21-2003 1:12 PM


quote:
Originally posted by iconoclast2440:
which as nothing to do with criteria in the oT concerning prophecies of Jesus descending from David through Solomon. This is rather irrelvant to Jesus' genealogy.

No one said it did have anything to do with Jesus descending from David through Solomon. But is not irrelevant since it part of his ascribed geneology and addresses your earlier post:
quote:
But not part of the prophesy...Judah is not of the line of David. Come on guys. Learn your biblical history.
It is part of the Messianic prophesy. And, of course,Judah is not of the David line; he's many generations before.
quote:
Lol. I have never denied that there is chain of events within prophecy.
Yes you did. You said, Judah "is not part of the prophesy."
quote:
What i have stated is that criteria within prophecy concerning the Messiah have not been met.
Fine, but that has nothing to do with the error I was addressing.
quote:
What you are also discussing here is rather absurd.
You are claiming that as long as Jesus were descended from Judah he would meet the criteria for being messiah. This of course is not so. Why you are asserting this is beyond me.

I never said anything like that. Pull up the quote and post it, if I did.
quote:
First off this verse doesn't emmediately concern the coming of the Messiah. It suggest the great line of Judah and those who will come later.
Once again, I'm simply illustrating the orthodox application of the passage as it relates to orthodox understanding of the messianic prophesies.
quote:
orthodoxy also igknowledges the promise to david that a messiah would come from his line through his son solomon. For some reason you ignore this. Simply being of the tribe of Judah doesn't allow for him to be descendant of David through Solomon.
I'm not ignoring it. It simply isn't what I'm addressing. Your point is quite right, and obviously so. Does anyone deny this? Not me.
quote:
what orthodoxy reconigizes this and where are you thinking there is a verse that suggests the messiah would come of a virgin?
If you are refering to isaiah 7:14 please read a bit more thuroughly. You will soon come to realize this refers to a sign to king Ahaz.
quote:
-Birthplace:Bethlehem
Now this is just plainly wrong.
Micah 5:2 States that the Messiah will come from the clan of Bethlehem Ephrathah.

Once again, for those of you a little slow on the up-take, I am illustrating orthodox viewpoint. If you would bother to check any of the references I provided, you will see that these are the prevailing positions of every major Christian denomination. Or, show me a source by a mainstream denomination which denies any of these assertions. I am not at all saying that these are important criteria for me in determining what I believe, merely that these are some of the other messianic prophesies which are widely held.
quote:
Take it easy? correcting? Lol. You don't seem to know what you are talking about here. You most certainly aren't correcting anything.
I was correcting your earlier assertion that Judah was not part of the prophesy. (See quote above.)
quote:
After what you have just posted i can say it is more than "so-called". Nothing you have said verifies your claims nor can you find verses that substantiate your claims.
I have no claims, except that you were incorrect about the place of Judah in the prophesy of the messiah, according to the orthodox view. All the verses I provided can be varified as important to that view by checking the sources I earlier mentioned.
quote:
Orthodox CHRISTIAN position. Using the word "orthodox" to describe it doesn't make your apologetics any less nonsensical.
It is only a CHRISTIAN question, so, yes it would be a Christion orthodoxy I'm speaking of. Is there a Buddhist orthodoxy as to the qualifications of Jesus vis a vis messianic prophesy? As to "apologetics," I am not defending anything. I'm simply describing a position, and a very simple one at that.
quote:
Then you clearly don't understand how baseless your position is. You should ask yourself why you can't address the topic then.
Who do you think this is? I have offered no position to you at all other than the placement of pre-davidic characters in the prophesy chain. Maybe you ought to go back and look at your conversation thread and see who has been saying what.
I'm not really sure of what it is you'd like addressed.
quote:
Then i am to assume your mentioning of Judah was entirely filler for your baseless argument?
I have no arguement! I was simply addressing the goofy notion that Judah is not part of the prophesies, and the faulty logic which says that, by bringing the Judah componant up, I'm somehow saying that anyone born of Adam could satisfy the prophesies. That simply is not reasonable.
quote:
You insuated that some one could be of David's line by being of the tribe of Judah which is just absurd.
Pull up my quote. Or stop saying that I said or insinuated anything this stupid.
quote:
What is your point? You could trace it all the back to the creation. That is not what we were discussing nor does it provide any answers to my questions.
I doubt you could trace it all the way back to creation, unless you were a literalist/young-earth creationist. Which I am not.
But, hey, you keep saying that I'm avoiding your question. Did I answer it in my post after the one you're railing about here? Or just what is your question, and from what view point would you like it addressed?
(Go back and read my posting history and ask yourself if I sound like a biblical apologist.)
-Shiloh
[This message has been edited by shilohproject, 01-21-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-21-2003 1:12 PM iconoclast2440 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-21-2003 3:18 PM shilohproject has not replied

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 168 (29793)
01-21-2003 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by iconoclast2440
01-21-2003 3:24 PM


quote:
Originally posted by iconoclast2440:
Try getting Fortenberry and Judge to admit that.

Whether or not they will admit anything is not terrible important to me. And, since the more I try and explain my input to you the more off base this conversation gets, perhaps I will just retire from the field.
I see no point if you are intent on misunderstanding me or mischaracterizing my comments.
-Shiloh

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-21-2003 3:24 PM iconoclast2440 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-21-2003 3:52 PM shilohproject has not replied

  
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