Christianity Is Broken, but Can Be Fixed

I wonder how avoidable that is. I hope that I, and those who live with me, manage to avoid such an attitude, or even an appearance of such attitude, because in person it's possible to communicate a lot more than can be communicated across the internet. In person, a person's attitude, posture, and everything else about them may exude humility and care, while his words on the internet...who knows what they may sound like.The fact is, Christ came to save people from their sins. He came to change their lives. If you take a group of people and better them, then they will be, well, better. That should be noticeable.I believe I have managed to avoid claiming myself to be better than anyone else, or talking about myself at all. I think I've managed to avoid making this at all personal. However, I am making a claim that faith in Christ has the power to make people better, so I am arguing that, as a whole, the disciples of Christ should be noticeably more virtuous than their neighbors. If they're not, then why waste your time believing in him?If that sounds arrogant, I just don't know how to avoid that. I am making a boastful claim, though not on my own behalf, but on Christ's. I hope I've answered that. As a whole, Christ's followers should be noticeably happier, more caring, and closer than their neighbors, or what power does Christ really have?

Let me add one more response, more specific:The children of Christians should be noticeably better students, not necessarily in grades, but in attentiveness, obedience, respectfulness, and behavior in and out of class. They should be noticeably hospitable, noted as helpful. As a group, it should be obvious to locals that the church can be counted on as a place for assistance, warmth, hospitality, and excellent advice and counseling for life, even from the untrained members of the church. The church, meaning the community of believers, should be a place where loneliness is banished, where children are well-adjusted, confident, happy, and free. You should be able to trust its members in business, knowing their word is as good as any signed contract.They should also be recognizable as family, as close and as responsible for one another as the closest families you know, whether or not they were physically born into the same families, because, after all, they are the household of God.Surely the household of God should be recognizable as an awesome family with well-adjusted and admirable members.

truthlover But by what criteria do we determine that? Happier about what? More caring in what way? Closer than their neighbours how? If Christ exists why is this not more obvious than it is?I have met people whom I would not care to socialize with due to drugs they partake of yet I have no doubt that they would unquestioningly lay their life down in defense of my family. They are not christian by any stretch of the imagination but they are true to the code they live by.
I do not think that the moral backbone of a person is related to their beliefs but to their commitments. A person can easily develop the greatest qualities of caring for others without being a follower of anything so I do not see that people change because of belief but because of learning the value of such actions in dealing with their day to day

Let me try to outline what I think TL is trying to say.I don't think that TL is saying that Christians are in some way superior to any other group. Instead, I believe he is trying to set out a description of what he think Christians fail to do.He is setting a standard that you or anyone outside the Christian Community might use to judge Christians, one with a very high threshold.TL is saying that Christianity has failed if

• as a body, they do not inspire you.
• you would not want your kids to behave as the Christian children do.
• if you would not want to be more like them.
• if as a teacher, you did not wish all your kids paid as much attention or tried as hard as the Christian kids.
• if you did not wish they were your neighbors.
  

Any criteria YOU choose.TL would like to see you so impressed by someone that you need to find out how they did it. There is no need to know they are Christian. There is no need for you to want to be a Christian. Rather, their behavior should be such that you wish you lived as they do.This message has been edited by jar, 11-18-2005 02:27 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It can sound that way SL. In a nutshell, the gospel says we, by that I mean, everyone ever born, is a filty, manky, rotten, greasy sinner in the eyes of God. He loves us but hates what we do. It doesn't matter whether you act like hitler or mother theresa in your life - that is the worlds standard of Goodness. As an unsaved per however, God views us all as steeped in sin. "All our righteousness are as filthy rags". We offend him.The saved person is given the righteousness of Christ. Because there is no sin blocking his view (as it were) the saved person, when they do 'good' things, please God their Father. Pleasing God is something an unsaved person CANNOT do: their sin stands in the way - that is what God sees when he looks at them. Unrighteousness.These 'good' things may not be any better in a worldly sense that the good things an unsaved person does, but it is not the wordly value system that counts - its Gods value system.It may not sound fair to you. It may sound arrogant. But that is just the way it is. And it's his opinion that holds sway whatever you or me may think of it. He is the boss afterall. He decides how the whole thing works. I would go so far as to say that I think that not even He, could make it work any differently.

Good summation of the practical outworking of Christianity Jar. That's kind of it in a nutshell. "What have they got??" should be the question raised in the non-Christian mindI just fail to see how it can be demonstrated that Christianity isn't actually doing this. The antics of a part (if they are indeed a part) of the church on tv and in politics seem to be used to fail the whole church. But the vast majority of the church is beyond the view of TLI question the data used as a measure. How does one know who a Christian is in order to decided that they aren't making the grade.Barna stats?

I second that. And right next to the arrogance is the condescension. I knew a lot of hippies in college and some of them lived in communes. They were very arrogant and condescending in their views, but as TL says: so, it turns that a lot of them were good friends of mine and we got along great, even though I disagreed with a lot of their beliefs. In RL I bet I could be friends with TL, but this thread is making him look like a jerk.

Believe what you will. I will continue to doubt the historical veracity of a book that talks about a world destroying flood, a boat that could hold 2 or 7 individuals of each species on earth, and people rising from the dead.ABE: Posted before I saw AdminShraf's comments.This message has been edited by mikehager, 11-17-2005 02:33 PM

A good, reasoned reply. However, your goal, which you mention several times, still seems undefined.What precisely is it? If you cannot state it, how will you know when you have reached it?The criteria I seem to gather from your comments is that those outside our theoretical fixed christian group determine our success when they begin commenting on it. Is that the goal, then? To have other view us and comment on us as good, loving people? To be "known for love, unity, and doing good" as you put it.I'm not picking on you, if it seems I am. There may be something to your position, but you seem a little unclear yourself on what your position is. By questioning you closely, I am trying to at the same time understand your position and help you clarify it. I say this because I am often short with thiests and I do not in this case want to seem so.

Good question. Let me try to answer.The first part has to do with identifying failure. People that do not meet that criteria have failed. It has nothing to do with whether or not they are Christians but they fall into the category of goats. They are folk that

• as a body, they do not inspire you.
• you would not want your kids to behave as they do.
• you would not want to be more like them.
• as a teacher, you did not wish all your kids paid as much attention or tried as hard as they do.
• you did not wish they were your neighbors.
  

So there is a body of folk that simply are not inspirational.The next step involves that group of individuals. If they also happen to declare that they are Christians, then they, not you, have identified a primary characteristic of "goats".This in many ways is what is happening today.The YEC movement is one of willfull ignorance.The Defense of Marriage movement is one of bigotry and oppression.The Salvation movement is one of exclusion and intolerance.The presentation of Christianity as proclaimed by televangelists and pulpit is of hate, despair and destruction.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Precisely, Jar. We admire people because they possess a quality or offer an example we`d like to aspire to. Shallow folk follow rock stars, sporting heroes,etc, but in search of the staff of life, we need something more substantial. If Christians were true to their publicity, we would find them role models and probably join their church. But what do we find in reality? Under the veneer, the same old bigoted, irascible people we are trying to leave behind.

In addition to what I said above SL, it is worth underlining the fact that although a saved person is seen, by God, as righteous and an unsaved person not, the righteousness has nothing at all to do with the relative merits of the individual. The arrogant sound of Christianity comes when folk start pointing to their own good deeds as being a catalysing factor in salvation: "If you live right then you go to heaven. I'm going to heaven thus I must be living right and you must be living wrong" Arrogance comes when someone places themselve above another based on own (perceived) merits.It is, however, God himself who makes a person righteous in his sight and it since receipt of this righteousness has nothing to do with ones own actions then there can be no offence taken by anybody to the righteousness a person is given by God. You can't take offence with a person for the fact they've been given something. That would be curlish and mean-mindedAs to exclusivity. Christianity is exclusive in the sense that only Christians (whether they use that name or are even aware that they are Christians) go to heaven. But no-one is excluded from becoming one except those who would exclude themselves. There are many things in life that can only be done one way and we are prepared to accept it readily. The any-path-to-the-summit may fit with what people want but if it isn't that way, then it isn't that way. God makes the call and if "I am the way and the truth and the life - no one comes to the father except through me" is true then it is not our place to argue - only to comply. Should we decide we want to.

What ever happened to turning the other cheek CS Whilst agreeing that statements like those you quoted from TL lack the very grace and compassion TL claims is missing in the body I can sympathise. If such a thing as salvation/damnation is a reality then it is a very serious business indeed. So serious in fact that the gospel must be defended with absolute rigor. That avatar of Charismaniac, whilst slightly stomach churning for me, is indicative of whats at stake.Folk here have different views on what that gospel is and they defend it with rigor - at times spilling over the boundaries of rigor into unhelpful slights. I'm not sure what everyone elses motivation for doing so is but if it is the same as mine - trying to point people at a way of escape from Charismaniacs avatar, then some overspilling is to be expected. The urgency of the situation makes it inevitable probably.Or maybe it's just that we're all argumentitive bastards

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I mean, a little community living in harmony is a hindrance to technological advancement and, IMO, "the way it ought to be" is ahead of us, not behind us.

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How is a harmonious community a hinderance to technological advancement?

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

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However, I am also suggesting that when the Faith is believed and practiced it produces love, unity, and doing good so well that those who encounter it marvel

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Exactly. Salvation went to the Gentiles to make the Jews jealous.Do you think they are jealous of what Christians have?

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-