|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,784 Year: 4,041/9,624 Month: 912/974 Week: 239/286 Day: 0/46 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: God says this, and God says that | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Chara Inactive Member |
quote: *grumble* I usually do preview ... took a shortcut this time ... bah! I need another cup a coffee
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: I don't think applying the term 'absolute' to logic makes any sense at all. To me, it is like saying there is an absolute 'geology' or an absolute 'english.' It just isn't applicable. There may be underlying principles which turn out to be absolute up to the limits of our ability to know, but applying it to the descriptions of the systems just doesn't make sense. Try imagining an 'absolute' hurricane, for example. It is a very complicated system, but you can't really apply the word 'absolute' to it. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
graedek Inactive Member |
Brian,
quote: I'm not deluded, though you may think so, maybe you are the one blind to the truth here. (just a suggestion) That's a pretty bold statement.
quote: Emperical evidence seems shallow to me. We may both be able to look at an object and see it as red, but maybe that's only association maybe the color that I am seeing is blue, and the color you are seeing is yellow but we both know it as red, so we can agree that the object is red even though we are seeing different colors. I don't ignore evidnce contrary to my beliefs, I've been accused of this before. It is evidence that I have for my beliefs that is being ignored and explained away. Miracle healings through prayer, (not gradual but immediate painless and complete healings), the way God has provided for my family in miraculous ways, in answer to prayer. These are just 2 pieces of evidence, but of course there is another explanation.
quote: Again you want to blame God for your sin. This again is a whole other discussion which I have been in at least once on this forum. God did not make the mistake, you did, I did, every single person ever to walk this planet made the mistakes. This is a "Goddidit" as that schraf would say. We were created perfect. We screwed it up. Not God. He did not condemn us to hell we did. So it's not illogical if you can take responsibility for your own actions instead of blaming them on a God you don't want to believe in.
quote: Yes this God who loves us requires that his Son be tortured and killed. (his son actually). Again not God's mistake, Yours! Mine! Yes God being just requires that the penalty be paid for this crime. And he provides a way out. Again I hear this Christianity did blah blah blah. Yes some men have done some horrible things in the name of Christianity, none of these things followed under the teaching of Jesus Christ, therefore were the actions of men not God. I don't see where caring for the sick the widowed the poor and the troubled is an abomination on mankind. I think the fact that these things exist is an abomination.
quote: I did not say it is similar to being a drug addict. You decided that's what I said. Now you say I can't change my nature, you are absolutely correct. My Creator, he on the other hand can change my nature if I would allow him, CAN and Has. You can deny it till your blue in the face, but if you knew the old me then you would definately say my old nature is gone. This peace that the Holy Spirit provides in my heart is not an addiction, it's just that, peace. A Peace that passes understanding. I have never had any chemical give me peace. I do not go searching for spiritual experiences the way a drug addict looks for a high. The peace of God is lasting unlike the addicts high. The Holy Spirit is a great counsellor a helper, a com link with God not a drug. Sometimes his help causes a great elation of my spirit but this is not the reason I have invited him to dwell in my life. I can choose to reject his gentle urges, though it results in a wall between God and i. It severs communication until I repent. God doesn't "need" a drug addict, but out of love like does not exist in man he will reconcile himself to this broken man. Oh praise the grace of the Lord! He will take and give him life, he will deliver him unto rightousness in his eyes. He will give him a meaningful work for all eternity. You may mock this but I give thanx to the Lord God Almighty.
quote: Yes I will stand in the strength of the Lord in the way you have observed always. Though I may fall I will get up, will make myself right with God, and continue walking with him. And I will do this all the way to glory. "if God is for us who can stand against us" ------------------
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
gene90 Member (Idle past 3849 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Unfortunately John I don't understand the logic you are trying to use: I don't believe in God because anything that cannot be tested empirically does not exist. I don't buy that. There's no way for you to prove it. It's a non-falsifiable belief and you know it. What if I were to use your reasoning in the sciences? We could throw out most of theoretical astrophysics (for example) in one brutal sweep.
quote: What are you talking about? You mean, God doesn't build the buildings? You know enough about Christian theology to know we have an explanation for that. God does not "prove" Himself because God wants you to go looking for Him. Surely you know that. I bet you don't like that, but you know it.
quote: Actually I disbelieve in Santa for several reasons (and I would use a bulleted list if I knew how): (1)My parents told me so a long time ago (2) lots of people have gone to the North Pole and not seen anything, and if I wanted to I could probably log onto TerraServer and check myself (3) the media and culture and television spend a lot of time on this subject, that parents perpetuate the myth is an inside joke and they wouldn't if there were no Santa Claus. Note the physical evidence Claus would leave if he were real.
quote: That's true. However this is a strawman. Santa Claus, by definition, leaves gifts. God does not, by definition, fund the church.
quote: Sorry if you don't like it but it is true. Most of my disbelief is faith-based, just as your disbelief in God is faith-based (by definition, because you have no evidence there is no God).
quote: No, but I find it terribly unwise to deny the possibility. And I think it is absurd to snub your nose and ridicule those who believe, when you have no evidence they are wrong. (And even worse to goad them for their lack of evidence, when you yourself have none.)
quote: All of these are possibilities. I do not spend my time trying to convince the local Muslims that Allah is not the true God. Nor would I try to convince followers of any Greek or Egyptian gods.
quote: It's been a few years, but I don't recall an invisible workshop in any of the cartoons. That was never a part of the myth as I understood it. But there are any number of ways to check for physical evidence: prints in the fireplace, that sort of thing. The only way to make Santa leave no evidence is to basically deify Santa, to turn him into a god. And that defeats the purpose of your example, doesn't it?
quote: Don't be ridiculous. You know that the Borg, like Santa Claus, and unlike God, will leave physical evidence. Is the ambient temperature of your building about 80 degrees Farenheit? Do the snack machines appear to have been gutted for parts? Are the conversations around the water bottle getting really dull? Plus other office buildings have never reported Borg. So while there is an infinitesimally small possibility of a Borg infestation of your office building, it is highly unlikely because: (1)Borg would leave evidence and (2)Borg would probably infest other office buildings as well. The problem here is that you are deliberately choosing absurd analogies. Your problem is that these analogies are absurd for the very reason that they contradict what we know from our senses. They would leave physical evidence if they were real, but there is no physical evidence, so they almost certainly are not real. God would not necessarily leave physical evidence, so God is not contradicted by our senses, therefore God is not absurd (no matter how much you would like to make Him absurd through bad analogies).
quote: But God does not necessarily leave evidence like the Borg would.
quote: Really? So you believe that belief in God is not non-falsifiable? Secondly, you believe that God can be empirically proven? Well great design an experiment.
quote: Yes, though I have a problem with your use of "dimensions". Also, Slimy the Gnome may not be it's name. It's somewhat contradictory because "Gnomes" are creatures that are supposed to exist in three dimensions and "Slimy" defines a sensory state, and this entity cannot be detected by our sense. It's name might be Thor, Allah, God, or a lower entity like Michael, or may something from Hell like Lucifer. Aside from "Slimy the Gnome" being internally inconsistent I cannot prove that it does not exist, and I don't think I would waste my time thumbing my nose at Slimy's believers, especially if I have no evidence against "Slimy the Gnome". Your analogies are getting better though. Eventually as you move away from the physical you will move closer to God-like attributes in your analogies. You will have to, in order to avoid physical evidence. [This message has been edited by gene90, 12-10-2002]
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
gene90 Member (Idle past 3849 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: I'm not the one throwing reason out the window. I'm asking you that if you have no evidence for or against God is it logical to claim that God does not exist? Further, is it logical to stomp the ground over "evidence" when you yourself have none? I'm asking you to admit that you are arguing from a faith-based position. From my perspective, your outright dismissal of anything you don't have direct sensory experience with is unreasonable and your logic full of holes.
quote: Yeah you've got that but how do you know that it can account for everything that is? That's quite a presumption, and one I am unwilling to make.
quote: You ask me a lot of questions you already know the answer to.
quote: I'm not the one snotting my nose at people who believed in Valhalla or green fairies. I would like to think I'm a little bit wiser than that. Plus, what if (simply for the sake of argument) Valhalla and Judeo-Christian Heaven are simply partial descriptions of the same place?
quote: I've seen your website so I have an idea.
quote: Likewise, I'm afraid.
quote: That depends on how big your lawn is, and how lazy you are. If you don't know a street is there, and you live a quarter mile off into the woods, and you didn't know if a street were there, you might never get to work. In fact, if you had no memory of the day before, you would have no empirical evidence of the street...therefore, by your logic, there would no street, therefore, you would never be able to leave your home. And if you wander about aimlessly, in a big circle, only halfheartedly, or look in the wrong places, you could wander a long time. Say, 20 years? Long enough to give up.
quote: No, actually, I fault you primarily because you think I, my family, my friends, and my fellow worshippers are "stupid", "dishonest", "evil", "abusive", and some other things.I fault you on a few other points because I believe you to be immoral, and maybe a few other things I won't go into. However, it is primarily because of your apparent bigotry that I fault you. [This message has been edited by gene90, 12-10-2002]
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: From my own experience and from the experiences of others as recorded historically in books. However, I don't put one of them on a pedastal and call it infallible. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
robinrohan Inactive Member |
Hume!!!!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
funkmasterfreaky Inactive Member |
quote: Then it still comes from a book then doesn't it. So you can't fault me for getting mine from a book. A book told me so does mean something. That's a pathetic rebutal. ------------------saved by grace [This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-11-2002]
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Hume, what? I wrote a 14 page criticism of Hume's Treatise for Phil class. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Surely you can see the difference, funk? But let me put this is in context. The comment was a response to gene's insinuations that athiesm is the easy way out. It isn't. Everything I do is on my shoulders. I cannot appeal to a BOOK for guidance. I can read books, and I do, but I cannot appeal to a book. You guys have the Bible. Look up the problem in your little concordance, gloss over the conflicting bits, and you are all set. I hate to break it to you, but that is the easy way out. The only hard part is glossing over the conflicting bits, and that seems to be pretty much second nature to most Christians. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
gene90 Member (Idle past 3849 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: It is. It makes moral values optional. It relieves you of striving to walk with God. It excuses you from searching for God. It's what happens when you give up.
quote: You can (and probably do) appeal to books for guidance. Philosophers have been writing books on atheism for years now. You can have role models, like Gould, and you can have "churches" (support groups and atheist political orgs) to prop up your beliefs. In short, you have everything we have, except God.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
gene90 Member (Idle past 3849 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Agreed. "Rebuttal" is giving the comment too much credit. Until Nos482 showed up such behavior was unknown from the local atheists. S/he set a bad precedent and the others, remarkably, seem to be following.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Oh, lets review shall we? This started back in post #17 when you responded to my post #12. In reply, I made numerous comments to your post-- my post #19. In this post I made short and concise, but damned accurate criticism of what you had written to me. And I made it quite clear that I felt your post was a pretty insubstantial response and an insult to my intelligence-- a point of which you accuse me in your next post. Your next post, #26, addresses few of the issues but instead attacks me personally to the point of outright slander, all the while hypocritically posting the Forum guidelines. You continue this attack in post #28 as well, and post #32, and #44. It is there for anyone to read. You tell me who is exhibiting bad behavior. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com [This message has been edited by John, 12-11-2002] [This message has been edited by John, 12-11-2002] [This message has been edited by John, 12-11-2002]
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Wow! I missed this Gene. More slander. You've been busy. The article you cite makes me a bigot? Are you joking? Is it impossible to criticise your faith without being labeled a bigot? Apparently you missed the point of the article you claim is a defense of pedophilia. It isn't. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
gene90 Member (Idle past 3849 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Comments such as:
This is the easy answer. Cute. This is getting trite, gene. In any other arena you'd realize how absurd this logic is. and
ok ???? quote: Much like the religious intolerance posted on your website. Perhaps you would like to make more substantial comments in the future? You sound so much like Nos right now.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024