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Author Topic:   why is alcohol legal: the george best/opening hours thread
Modulous
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 16 of 136 (263047)
11-25-2005 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Funkaloyd
11-25-2005 7:55 AM


Democracy
I believe that in a democracy it is the people that should decide such things, not individuals.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Funkaloyd, posted 11-25-2005 7:55 AM Funkaloyd has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Dr Jack, posted 11-25-2005 9:39 AM Modulous has responded
 Message 18 by kjsimons, posted 11-25-2005 9:53 AM Modulous has responded

  
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 209 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 17 of 136 (263052)
11-25-2005 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Modulous
11-25-2005 8:39 AM


Re: Democracy
The problem of The Tyranny of the Majority rears its ugly head, I believe.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2005 8:39 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
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kjsimons
Member
Posts: 665
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 18 of 136 (263053)
11-25-2005 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Modulous
11-25-2005 8:39 AM


Re: Democracy
Well the majority of Americans are Christians and many of them believe that it is the one true religion, so by your logic it should be okay to make it the state religion or make other religions illegal if the populace votes for it! I wouldn't want to live in your world.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2005 8:39 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 1154
From: San Diego, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 19 of 136 (263056)
11-25-2005 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by kjsimons
11-25-2005 9:53 AM


Re: Democracy
I think democracy needs to include some "unalienable rights" for individuals. Not sure if Mod would agree.

If so, then only the things outside those rights can be voted upon and established by the people.

But regardless, even if "the right to have any religious belief" was "unalienable", in a truly democratic society, if you live with a lot of Christians, you're going to be living in a society with a lot of laws that look Christian.

It's all about the "unalienable rights"... and those seem quite arbitrary to me as well. Guess it depends on how you define what it is to be a person.

Ben


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 Message 18 by kjsimons, posted 11-25-2005 9:53 AM kjsimons has not yet responded

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 Message 21 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2005 11:03 AM Ben! has responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 20 of 136 (263063)
11-25-2005 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by kjsimons
11-25-2005 9:53 AM


Re: Democracy
so by your logic it should be okay to make it the state religion

Erm, not really. It would have to be the majority opinion that its ok for congress to make a law respecting an establishment of religion.

...make other religions illegal if the populace votes for it! I wouldn't want to live in your world.

I certainly wouldn't want to live in a place where the majority of people would want to make certain religions illegal.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by kjsimons, posted 11-25-2005 9:53 AM kjsimons has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 21 of 136 (263064)
11-25-2005 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Ben!
11-25-2005 10:04 AM


Re: Democracy
I think democracy needs to include some "unalienable rights" for individuals. Not sure if Mod would agree

I basically agree, but who decides those rights if not the people?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Ben!, posted 11-25-2005 10:04 AM Ben! has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Ben!, posted 11-25-2005 11:12 AM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 22 of 136 (263068)
11-25-2005 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dr Jack
11-25-2005 9:39 AM


Re: Democracy
Indeed - but laws can be established to help prevent this: after all, I'm sure the majority of people don't want to be potential victims of the Tyranny of the Majority.

Is this a sticky area, full of pit traps and problems? Yes.


This message is a reply to:
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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 1154
From: San Diego, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 23 of 136 (263069)
11-25-2005 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Modulous
11-25-2005 11:03 AM


Re: Democracy
I basically agree, but who decides those rights if not the people?

I don't think it matters. No matter how democracy is established, it can be overturned if the people choose so. No grounding is "safer" or "better" than any other.

You could have the establishment of democracy forced upon you externally and establish those rights (hi USA). You could have a select few establish those rights (hi USA). Or you could have the people vote on unalienable rights (has this ever happened?).

Any way you look at it, if the people don't like it, they can overthrow the government. Or, if I understood jar's explanation correctly the other days, some goverments give easier means for revisiting such a thing (a Constitutional Convention?).

Point is, establishment of a democracy need not require a democracy. I think. :cool:

Ben


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2005 11:03 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2005 11:15 AM Ben! has responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 24 of 136 (263071)
11-25-2005 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Ben!
11-25-2005 11:12 AM


Re: Democracy
Any way you look at it, if the people don't like it, they can overthrow the government.

So ultimately, the people decide what those rights end up being, right?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Ben!, posted 11-25-2005 11:12 AM Ben! has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Ben!, posted 11-25-2005 11:43 AM Modulous has not yet responded

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 1154
From: San Diego, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 25 of 136 (263080)
11-25-2005 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Modulous
11-25-2005 11:15 AM


Re: Democracy
So ultimately, the people decide what those rights end up being, right?

Kind of. The mechanisms for change create a kind of "inertia" that (to me) serves as a "check" for being overly aggressive in how fast or often you change those rights.

But I'm giving a slow nod in general agreement.

Ben


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 Message 24 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2005 11:15 AM Modulous has not yet responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1072 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 26 of 136 (263096)
11-25-2005 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Modulous
11-25-2005 7:36 AM


My body & consciousness are my business.
Modulous writes:

Which raises the question: If the majority wanted alcohol to be illegal, should it be?

Yes, probably.

No. Let law and policy regulate unacceptable behavior, not states of consciousness.

If you prohibit every substance, device, or knowledge that creates destructive behaviors in some people, we will all be the poorer for it. Even without intoxicants, some people drive recklessly--shall we ban cars? Hackers use their knowledge to defraud--shall we ban the net?

Legalize everything: prohibition never works.

The urge to experience altered consciousness is universal in our species and common in many others. Western cultures struggle with alcohol poisoning because they have banned every other outlet, including all nondestructive or less destructive substances. When you criminalize cognitive liberties, you move one step closer to criminalizing ideas.

I will drink, smoke, inject, or swallow anything I damn well please, and the State (and my neighbors) can stay the hell out of my body and mind.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Modulous, posted 11-25-2005 7:36 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by RAZD, posted 11-25-2005 7:09 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded
 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2005 5:03 AM Omnivorous has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19809
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 27 of 136 (263135)
11-25-2005 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Omnivorous
11-25-2005 1:46 PM


Re: My body & consciousness are my business.
You can also be just as bad a driver, just as slow on reflexes and just as bad at being aware of what is going on around you if you are extremely tired and not on any drug\substance at all. You could also be, hate to say it, too old. Or just too immature, regardless of actual age.

So yes: state of consciousness to some measurable degree, behavior commensurate with the rational use of a lethal machine. Test ability not what's limiting it?

Get ticketed for operation of a vehicle while in an unfit condition.

Why is drunk driving worse than any other {inability\unabled} driving?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Omnivorous, posted 11-25-2005 1:46 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2005 5:13 AM RAZD has responded
 Message 43 by nator, posted 11-26-2005 5:27 PM RAZD has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 28 of 136 (263192)
11-26-2005 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Omnivorous
11-25-2005 1:46 PM


My body & consciousness are my business.
No. Let law and policy regulate unacceptable behavior, not states of consciousness.

Agreed. Unacceptable behaviour would be things such as 'Brewing alcoholic beverages, selling alcoholic beverages, buying alcoholic beverages'

Being drunk should be no more illegal than tripping on acid is now.

If you prohibit every substance, device, or knowledge that creates destructive behaviors in some people, we will all be the poorer for it.

I agree. I don't want the prohibition of alcohol, or other drugs.

Even without intoxicants, some people drive recklessly--shall we ban cars? Hackers use their knowledge to defraud--shall we ban the net?

Precisely.

Legalize everything: prohibition never works.

Well, no. We can't legalize 'everything' - murder, theft and rape should remain prohibited!

The urge to experience altered consciousness is universal in our species and common in many others

Agreed, as I said in Message 8:

quote:
Alcohol has been with civilization since its beginning, and probably before. We are blessed with intelligence and consiousness, but are cursed with being intelligent and aware enough to realize that the world is a dangerous and stressful place. Alcohol, and other drugs have been used to help mankind ease this psychological burden for a long time.

When you criminalize cognitive liberties, you move one step closer to criminalizing ideas.

Absolute agreement.

I will drink, smoke, inject, or swallow anything I damn well please, and the State (and my neighbors) can stay the hell out of my body and mind.

Damn straight. This is confused somewhat by medical costs for the resulting damage you can cause to yourself and the ethics of all of that...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Omnivorous, posted 11-25-2005 1:46 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Funkaloyd, posted 11-26-2005 8:10 AM Modulous has not yet responded
 Message 40 by Omnivorous, posted 11-26-2005 5:04 PM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 29 of 136 (263194)
11-26-2005 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by RAZD
11-25-2005 7:09 PM


Re: My body & consciousness are my business.
Why is drunk driving worse than any other {inability\unabled} driving?

I imagine it is because people are not aware that they are too old or too immature and it is very difficult to quantify too old/too immature/too tired. However - people have been prosecuted for the latter two and had their licence revoked for the former, its less common because it is less easy to demonstrate than alcohol content in the blood.

Drink driving is easily quantifiable and testable, and the person involved is mostly aware that they have been drinking.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by RAZD, posted 11-25-2005 7:09 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by RAZD, posted 11-26-2005 8:47 AM Modulous has responded

  
Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 136 (263209)
11-26-2005 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Modulous
11-26-2005 5:03 AM


Re: My body & consciousness are my business.
quote:
This is confused somewhat by medical costs for the resulting damage you can cause to yourself and the ethics of all of that...

Confused is right. The taxes argument is one of only two reasonable cases for the prohibition of drugs that I've heard, the other being the assertion that individuals shouldn't have the liberty to deprive themselves of liberty, e.g. through suicide or the unnecessary use of physically addictive substances.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2005 5:03 AM Modulous has not yet responded

  
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