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Author | Topic: God says this, and God says that | |||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Context, gene. Context!!!!! The first statement is an observation that evil atheists and pagans proliferate right under the nose of the King. The second statement is culled from Biblical mythology to contradict a statement, made by Funkie, that this King is not the kind to kill people because they don't follow him. In other words, the second statement is conditional on the mythology of the Bible. The first statement isn't. ------------------
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3845 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
John's Religious Intolerance:
Apparently we are being told how to choose good folk from bad. Now, I am just guessing, but judging by the source quoted, I'd say that the author expects the good folk to be the body of Christ-- the Christian Church. And Christians, the good fruit. The funny thing is that the worst fruit I've ever known have called themselves Christian. Spite, pride, envy, malice.... all of these I learned in Church. Deceit, vengence, prejudice.... these as well. Apparantly, the author has anticipated the most likely objection to my line of reasoning: "Oh, sure, there are SOME bad Christians; but you can't condemn the whole because of those few." Think about it. Those few bad christians span millenia, and are responsible for millions of deaths. Pay attention. All of the smart people stopped believing two hundred years ago, so bear with me if this is repetitive. Christianity, and religion in general, is irrational, if not downright insane The worst people I have ever known have been Christians, take Reverend Phelps for example. Christians are evil Christians are dishonest. Those are not intolerant? Really? Well let's try an experiment. Take "Christians are dishonest" and replace the "Christian" in that phrase with "Jew" and see if it's something you would not be embarrassed to say amongst civilized people. Take your phrase, "The worst people I have ever known have been Christians" and replace "Christians" with "Muslims", and see if you would ever be caught saying something like that in front of somebody important. You're not a bigot? Are you sure of that? As for pedophilia, you think it should be legal, as you wrote this article saying that the age of consent should be moved down, and you wrote an article entitled "The emancipation proclamation for pedophiles in which you advocate that the House is wrong in opposing a lowering of the age of consent. It's there for the analysis of anyone who would like, let them decide if you are a religious bigot and if you write articles that try to pass off pedophilia as tolerable. [This message has been edited by gene90, 12-11-2002]
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John Inactive Member |
quote: ummm..... ok. What exactly is your point then? You are preaching to me?
quote: Why does he get so pissed, according to legend, if one does not want to serve?
quote: I fail to see how gutting your argument illustrates the purpose of your argument. Maybe you can clear this up?
quote: By my logic? You must be very confused. You read a book or heard the someone preach ( or many people ) and felt a feeling that your soul had been repaired or something to that effect. I read Diary of a Drug Fiend and felt the same. Both cases are identical, except for the book. It isn't my logic, it is yours that validates Crowley. And what does Crowley being a man have to do with anything? The critical element is the use of the emotional reaction as justification. ------------------
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3845 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Fair enough, I'll let it go.
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Very substantial. Thank you for that illustration of proper behavior.
quote: You have real replies, as real as they deserve. What you posted was nothing but a preformatted knee-jerk answer I have heard a thousand times. And, I am sure you have heard the same things as well and have probably read countless replies.
quote: I am not going to waste time on the equivalent of "if you want to walk down the street you have to find it first." Talk about your insults to intelligence!
quote: Gee. Now I am faulted for NOT UNDERSTANDING YOUR ANALOGY? Please.
quote: In response to your insinuation that I am taking the easy way out, this is terribly appropriate.
quote: Wow. This example of proper forum behavior deserves to be brought to the front again.
quote: Like hell. You flew off the handle not me.
quote: Its funny that you chose the same things to misrepresent that nos chose.
quote: This is the easy answer. Your analogy doesn't make sense to me. Earn faith? Isn't that oxymoronic? Cute. So you'll be starting you quest for Thor soon then? With just enough faith that you won't immediately reject whatever the result? This is getting trite, gene. In any other arena you'd realize how absurd this logic is. ok ???? Nope. Twas the Easter bunny helping out. And you can't prove differently using the same logic you've been using so far. Its absurd. In other words, don't expect anything that might qualify as evidence. This is insane, gene. Now I am going to get offended. Don't pretend to know what time and effort I have put into finding out for myself. My life has been devoted to it. The path isn't clear, gene. And there is no way to investigate, as your entire post has explained. I admit having little respect for this kind of arrogant self-righteous crap. Don't pretend to know me. It is irritating. I believe what I believe because I have spent the last twenty years tearing myself apart. Funny, considering the post you have composed. Sorry, the easy way out is 'a book told me so' Let's compare.
I think, John, most of your difficulty with God is that you're just not an insider. You're not supposed to test God because that is cheating. It's like taking an exam with the answer key. You have to earn your faith through diligence. If you want to walk with God, you've got to find Him first. It isn't hard to start out, it doesn't take long either, but you have to make an effort first, with at least enough faith that you won't immediately reject whatever the result is. You're going to have suspend your disbelief and you're going to have be humble. I don't think that's unreasonable for anyone, I managed just fine. If you refuse to do these things, why should God do your work for you? You earn what you work for just as the believers do. God has done a lot for you already, but you have to make a conscious decision and stick with it to get the best results. Until then, don't expect anything so blatant you can't explain it away as coincidence. I happen to believe that there is "a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven, upon which all blessings are predicated" and it is through adherence to that law that you might find answers to the question of whether or not there is a God, if you would only devote the time and interest to find out for yourself. Otherwise, it's easy for you to post comments like "I can't believe! I'm set up for failure! It's unfair!" when the path is clear for you but you refuse to follow it. I admit having little sympathy for that because it is a consequence of one's own inaction and one's own self-inflicted ignorance. This state of mind amazes me: blame God for your non-belief and, then, don't show any interest in God because you don't believe! It's circularity. It is also an easy way to shirk the knowledge that there are certain obligations in life beyond eating, drinking, and breathing, and that you should be humble. Not all that much difference really. What you wrote is what, a third again as long? Hardly a damning comparison.
quote: Apparently you missed: 1) That your first sentence was dismissive. 2) That earning faith strikes me as oxymoronic. 3) That telling me to "to make an effort first, with at least enough faith that you won't immediately reject whatever the result is" works for any religion you plug into the appropriate blank. So your rational pretty much supports everything. 4) That suspending disbelief is absurd when dealing with something that is untestable. Once one suspends disbelief-- ie. believes-- everything came be interpretted in the context of that belief. 5) That the way to God has involved some very painful, dangerous, and hallucenagenic things depending upon whom you ask, but you discount these methods? 6) That I have no idea what this means: "You earn what you work for just as the believers do." Notice the question marks? 7) That "God has done a lot for you already" but you don't know it works for any name you fill into the blank. 8) That you own statement -- "don't expect anything so blatant you can't explain it away as coincidence" -- is evidence that there is no reason to believe in God. 9) That you sprinkled numerous insults throughout the initial post.
quote: "The path isn't clear, gene" quote: That is exactly the point, gene. ALL YOU SAID TO ME WAS THAT THE PATH IS CLEAR. Adding, of course, that I REFUSE to follow it. You cannot believe this is an argument. And then complain that I reflect the same thing back to you?
quote: How do you rebut a string of opinions lacking in arguments?
quote: Yes. I damn sure do know what I wrote. Do you? Apparantly not, or you may have noticed this sentence: "What boils my blood is not that The House and the APA oppose the rape of children-- I'm ok with that, but that both orginizations are placing public policy above the results of the scientific study." Do you notice that I approve of the opposition to the RAPE OF CHILDREN. Opposition to does not mean "in support of."
quote: Like hell, you half read the damned article and misrepresented what it said.
quote: Hmmm..... not verified? But feel quite comfy posting numerous statements to the effect that my site contains porn? Actually, I don't much care about this one as porn is not on my list of evils, but it strikes me as hypocritical that you make such accusations and then admit to not really know.
quote: This is my experience. Sorry it is disturbing to you.
quote: Yup. I'm not. I used to be. Now I just get annoyed when religion weasels into my life, which it does quite frequently due to the high percentage of Christians in the country.
quote: Gene, how can I take you seriously when you fill your posts with this dogma?
quote: What I have repeated have been in an attempt to debate.
quote: I heard garbage. What's not to like?
quote: In case you've missed it, I am not trying to find favor with God. I don't believe such a thing exists.
quote: More ad hominems. Yawn..... this is really getting old.
quote: I don't really care what you buy. It must suck when the truth doesn't agree with you. I have been arguing religion for twenty years or so, but not always arguing against it. Always analyzing though, and always gathering information.
"As I said, faith is something you go looking for. It is usually not something you were born with. Why should God give you faith if you have done nothing to earn it?" I didn't duck this. I told you that earning faith seem oxymoronic. You never replied to that. You never told me how one earns faith. On the one hand faith must be earned, but faith is just faith. How do you get it if you don't have it? You seem to be telling me that to earn faith I have to have faith.
"Why should your searching be successful if you refuse to leave in a manner consistent with God's will?" How do I know what God's will is if I haven't found God?
There is an internal inconsistency in your posts (see Message 33 in this thread) I've already dealt with that. There is no inconsistency.
If you have no evidence that there is no God, why are you convinced there is no God? So convinced that you feel we are worthy of ridicule? Further, why do you poison the well by ridiculing theists for their faith, simply because they, just like yourself, have no evidence? I haven't ducked this one either, but have spent much time on it in fact. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: In fact, it is an ad hominem whether it is true or not, as it serves to derail the argument and deflect the debate to one concerning my character and not the issues.
quote: You don't know my mind or my history. Stop pretending. All you know of me are the parts I chose to reveal.
quote: Believe, and then look for evidence. Guess what, gene? If I believe in Atlantis prior to finding evidence, I could find such evidence everywhere I look.
quote: Only if I first believe your assertions about God. It is a vicious circle only if I believe you, and I don't.
quote: When did this change happen?
quote: I don't cite it as evidence so much as object to your insistence that I haven't thought about these things.
quote: Nor do I. I claim that there is no reason to believe. Ten minutes from now, perhaps there will be such evidence. Try to refrain from telling me what I think.
quote: I don't think the phenomenon is that much of a mystery. It is called a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is pretty well documented.
quote: I'm sorry? Are you saying that one can find evidence without first believing? Now we are getting somewhere!!! Though is contradicts most of what you've posted, tell me how is this done?
quote: Nor are you an insider where other religions are concerned, or other philosophies. You are in the same boat as I, which is why the argument is so hollow.
quote: Why not, if God were my daddy and all loving?
quote: I know the feeling.
quote: Sure I do, for the same reasons you feel you have the right to object.
quote: Actually, not really. I only brought it up to counter your childish "you obviously didn't look" comments.
quote: This, after so much complaining about my criticisms of your faith?
quote: I haven't said anything about you personally, but about ideas and concepts. You have directly attacked me. It is worse to attack a generalization than an individual?
quote: My 'faith' is constantly under attack. This isn't the problem. The problem is your lies about me.
quote: God seems to talk a lot in the Bible. At times he seems to go on and on and not shut up.
When did He stop talking? Was it just before we had recording technologies like tape cassettes, or film cameras, or is there a passage in the Bible that explains why he doesn't chat anymore? Attacking me is a vital component of this topic? ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Being an indian is genetic, being a christian is a choice. See the difference?
quote: Then say people who consume alcohol are drunks, or say people who take drugs are addicts. Like it or not, there are some things that are associated with religion, and one of them is not applying the rationality to it that is applied to everyone elses religion. This is dishonest at best.
quote: Don't need one and no it isn't. If I criticize the religion of the Incas' is that racist? Nope. Criticize Koresh's followers? Nope. The Hari Krishna's? Nope. Taoist's? Nope. Wiccan's? Nope. You just don't like being in the same category. Sorry. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: How many times do you want this answer repeated? Let me know and I'll just post over and over until you are satisfied. ------------------
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Chara Inactive Member |
*pulling one foot out of the mud* Drat, lost that shoe .....
I think the orginal question was, "Does God still speak today?" Gene, you stated that you thought the reason John does not "hear" God is because he isn't listening. John, you replied that wasn't true. Right? From this point, there really is no further discussion guys. Both statements are personal opinion. (imo *chuckle*) Anywho .... I think the discussion went to the idea that John (because he had no proof that God didn't exist) was arguing from faith just as gene (who has no proof that God does exist) was arguing from faith. Is that right? I would like to know (after having walked with God for just about 20 yrs) what exactly is a "religious experience"? This was brought up somewhere in the previous pages ... saying that this can also be drug-induced, and I really do not know what is being referred to.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3845 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Are you saying there is no such thing as religious intolerance? Or that there is no such thing as religious bigotry?
quote: There is a difference between being critical of a religion and calling its followers "stupid", "evil", or "dishonest". If you called the Hare Krishna, Taoists, Branch Davidians, Incas, or Wiccans, "stupid", "evil", or "dishonest" because of their religious preferences you would still be a religious bigot. It's not the same as saying Koresh himself were any of those things, then you are judging an individual instead of a stereotype. I'm sure you heard about the evangelical Baptists who have been saying nasty things about Muslims and Mohammed on television and the vast public outcry that followed their brazen display of intolerance. What you are doing is not any better. You're just like them! You are on an evangelical mission to advance your religion and you're utterly convinced that everyone else is "deluded". You've been fighting "monsters" for a long time, and you know what I'm insinuating with this. And just for the record: I called you a bigot. I did not call you a racist. The examples I suggested you interchange with "Christian" in your hate-mongering statements were "Jew" and "Muslim", neither of which necessarily implies race. [This message has been edited by gene90, 12-11-2002]
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3845 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: When you give a logical answer instead of snippy remarks, once will be fine. Or alternatively you could just go ahead and admit you are arguing from a faith-based position. That would be a step in the right direction.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3845 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Your character is one of the chief issues. The subject of the debate is why God doesn't seem to talk to some people. Well I think it's quite obvious. All I need to see is your website why God isn't talking to you.
quote: And they are definately adequate for my purposes in this thread.
quote: If this premise were true, all of science would be undermined. For example, all the "findings" scientists would discover would be colored by their prior notions. In fact this is exactly what the YECs are claiming. Are you trying to give credence to their arguments?
quote: You only must accept the possibility and make a sincere effort to find God. That includes cleaning up your life.
quote: I am not sure. I suspect you never really were looking for God. You say you spent 20 years looking for God. Then you say you spent 20 years successfully arguing with Christians. Which was it?
quote: Praying, studying the scriptures, going to church, living a clean life...oh wait that's too much to ask you without believing first. As I have said, the problem is not that you don't believe, the problem is laziness. Remember the analogy about finding the road?
quote: No, you would had to have "thought" about it to argue with "stupid", "evil" Christians for twenty years. I just don't think you ever made a sincere effort.
quote: Do you have enough evidence against God to justify your vendetta against Christianity? And if not, why do you expect Christians to have evidence before they believe?
quote: Not here, you only implied it when you called my beliefs insane. However I am a Christian and according to your website, "Christians are evil". It's quite simple: Christians are evilGene is a Christian. Gene is evil. You are speaking of me personally, do not pretend that you aren't.
quote: Because you don't listen. Whatever God tries to tell you is buried by your rebellion. If you would stop rejecting everything God values maybe you could hear. Also God has a tendency to assist those that believe in Him. Don't you remember that you have to earn faith?
quote: Yes. By far. Saying "Christians are evil" is no less offensive, provocative, and wrong than saying "Muslims are terrorists".
quote: Lies? My source is quite reliable. Of course, I'm not fond of your lies about me. And as long as the topic of discussion is "why God doesn't talk to you", what we know of your character is valid evidence. [This message has been edited by gene90, 12-11-2002]
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Chara Inactive Member |
As an imperfect parent, and having been a teenager, I know full well that there are times when a parent is talking but the child is not listening. Could it be perhaps that it is not that God is not "talking" to John, but that he is not listening?
John, don't get upset here. I have heard you say that you have sought God and it appears to you that He is not there. That is fair. It is what you perceive. It does not necessarily mean that your conclusion is correct. You said previously that you used to be bitter, but now you just don't care. (Is that a correct paraphrase of your comment?) Is it possible that you have put up the wall? That God is, after all, speaking, but you can't hear? Not asking you to agree .... just to consider the possibility. And John, I apologize for the things that have been done to you, or the things that weren't done for you and I ask for your forgiveness.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3845 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Thank you for your contribution to the illustration.
quote: How many times have you acted on it?
quote: Point ducking?
quote: This should make you suspect that perhaps it isn't actually a misrepresentation.
quote: But a vast difference in quality. Mine actually said something useful. It didn't duck whole points with things like "Cute" and "Better than getting it out of a book".
quote: I thought you were avoiding the issue. Perhaps you could detail how and why "earning faith" is an oxymoron? I know lots of atheists like to believe that faith is something you either have or do not have (because it helps them escape Pascal's Wager) but perhaps you could defend that, if that is your perspective. Or otherwise elaborate?
quote: Can you prove that? Or at least elaborate on it? Have you actually tried that for any religion? Or are you speculating?
quote: You earn your faith by diligently following God. You don't follow God therefore you will never develop any faith. The process actually is a vicious circle, either way: toward or against God.
quote: I'm retracting that actually.
quote: Most people would find this disturbing, but since I've come to expect this from you, it is kind of amusing. You do not have a problem with people who oppose child rape. Well good for you, but it's not the same as you yourself opposing child rape. But then you say you're angry at the House because they ignored the claim that children having sex doesn't do any harm. In other words, you seem to be pro-underage sex. And since sex before age of consent is rape, you are actually supporting child rape. Just out of curiousity, what did you think people would think of your article when you entitled it, "The Emancipation Proclamation for Pedophiles"? [This message has been edited by gene90, 12-11-2002]
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funkmasterfreaky Inactive Member |
quote: That's the logic of a 4 year old johnny. It's a stereotype. It's wrong. There is plenty of evidence to say alot of things about a lot of groups of people. (i will avoid examples so as not to offend anyone else) You haven't met every Christian and your aarogant mockery and insults don't go to far in bringing out the best in people. This said you promote this stereotype of Christians, it is a stereotype and nothing less. Every stereotype has some form of evidence to the small minded people who want to fit people into a stereotype. Does not make that stereotype correct. I can't believe you have the audacity to even argue this. You have no case. Anyways this thread was supposed to be about God talking, not your religious intolerance. ------------------saved by grace
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