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Author Topic:   YEC vs. EVO presuppositions / methodology
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 271 of 300 (263309)
11-26-2005 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Faith
11-26-2005 12:33 PM


Re: A resolution, indeed
The question is, and has been throughout this thread, your assertion that your interpretation of the Bible cannot be challenged. Is that correct or not?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:40 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 272 of 300 (263312)
11-26-2005 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by jar
11-26-2005 12:36 PM


Re: A resolution, indeed
The question is, and has been throughout this thread, your assertion that your interpretation of the Bible cannot be challenged. Is that correct or not?
THAT IS INCORRECT. There is no QUESTION. The point of the thread is to DEMONSTRATE THE CONFLICTING PREMISES. It is a simple statement of fact that a YEC holds that the word of God is nonnegotiable judge of all things. Your endless attempts to say they are wrong are OFF TOPIC. Gad, LEARN TO READ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:45 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 273 of 300 (263315)
11-26-2005 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Faith
11-26-2005 12:40 PM


Faith once again misrepresents what others say.
It is a simple statement of fact that a YEC holds that the word of God is nonnegotiable judge of all things. Your endless attempts to say they are wrong are OFF TOPIC. Gad, LEARN TO READ.
Please show where I said they are wrong. I have simply asked if it is reasonable to challenge their premise.
jar asked:
The question is, and has been throughout this thread, your assertion that your interpretation of the Bible cannot be challenged. Is that correct or not?
Once again, is that correct or not?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:40 PM Faith has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 274 of 300 (263320)
11-26-2005 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by jar
11-26-2005 12:29 PM


Re: A resolution, indeed
jar writes:
That's fine Buz, but don't you think a premise should be able to be defended or supported? Folk are free to come up with any premise they want, but should that premise stand solely by assertion? Should it be open to challenge and question?
Jar, jar! You're an admin. Right? You should know that this thread, as per the OP and as Faith has repeatedly reminded, is not about supporting/defending premises. Be nice. Do the forum guideline thing and open your own thead for off topic stuff.
Edited to clarify.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-26-2005 01:02 PM

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 1:07 PM Buzsaw has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 275 of 300 (263322)
11-26-2005 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Buzsaw
11-26-2005 12:59 PM


Re: A resolution, indeed
Buz, here is what I asked.
That's fine Buz, but don't you think a premise should be able to be defended or supported? Folk are free to come up with any premise they want, but should that premise stand solely by assertion? Should it be open to challenge and question?
It's a yes or no question.
Should a premise be open to challenge or question?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2005 12:59 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2005 1:13 PM jar has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 276 of 300 (263323)
11-26-2005 1:07 PM


Symbolic vs. literal readings
Faith (in message 252) writes:
The scientific evolutionist side says science must judge the Bible; the Biblical creationist side says the Bible must judge science.
How silly. Science does not, and cannot judge the Bible, for science cannot judge anything. Scientists make judgements. But science is an institution, not a person, and has no capability of judgement. And even though scientists make judgements, most do not judge the Bible. It is the historian, not the scientists, who judge the Bible.
Likewise, the Bible cannot judge science. For the Bible is inert text, incapable of judging anything. It is people who choose to judge science, and not the Bible.
I am pointing this out, not to comment on its silliness. In fact, the quoted text has been responded to in several messages. It has even been nominated in Message 52. So obviously nobody had difficulty understanding what Faith meant when she wrote that.
My point is to note how easily and how naturally we use symbolic speech, to the extent that we often completely ignore what the text literally says. And this in a context where some people are insisting on a literalist reading of genesis text that is obviously symbolic.

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 1:37 PM nwr has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 277 of 300 (263324)
11-26-2005 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by jar
11-26-2005 1:07 PM


Re: A resolution, indeed
jar writes:
It's a yes or no question.
Should a premise be open to challenge or question?
Not on this thread. Challenging premises off topic here. YOU'RE HIJACKING FAITH'S THREAD AND IRRITATING PEOPLE! GET ON TOPIC OR BUG OFF!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 1:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by AdminAsgara, posted 11-26-2005 1:24 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 279 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 1:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied

AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 278 of 300 (263326)
11-26-2005 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Buzsaw
11-26-2005 1:13 PM


Re: A resolution, indeed
For some reason it is just about impossible to get anyone to stand back and recognize that we are talking about two completely opposed premises or presuppositions and that that is what slants the debate here. The evos continued to argue with my statements about this overview I attempted, and with the YEC presupposition, FROM THEIR OWN presupposition (basically Science Rules as opposed to God Rules), instead of being able to recognize their presupposition itself, their use of it, stand back from it and just SEE the fundamental clash of worldviews for what they are. This is no doubt due to their abiding contempt for the YEC point of view. Kinda puts a crimp in objectivity dontcha know.
I may have read the OP wrong, but it seems to be about presuppositions claimed on both sides of the issue. Jar seems to be saying that nothing is a presupposition in science and that any premise has to be defended.
I think this is spot on topic. Should a premise be open to challenge or question?

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 277 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2005 1:13 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 279 of 300 (263327)
    11-26-2005 1:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 277 by Buzsaw
    11-26-2005 1:13 PM


    Perhaps you cannot read.
    jar asked:
    It's a yes or no question.
    Should a premise be open to challenge or question?
    and buz replied,
    Not on this thread. Challenging premises off topic here. YOU'RE HIJACKING FAITH'S THREAD AND IRRITATING PEOPLE! GET ON TOPIC OR BUG OFF!
    What does that mean buz? Is that "Yes a premise may be challenged but not in this thread?" If so, then the answer to my question was "Yes"
    This message has been edited by jar, 11-26-2005 12:26 PM

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 277 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2005 1:13 PM Buzsaw has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 281 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 1:34 PM jar has replied

    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 280 of 300 (263328)
    11-26-2005 1:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 278 by AdminAsgara
    11-26-2005 1:24 PM


    Re: A resolution, indeed
    Yes, Asgara, you have read the OP wrong. If I didn't adequately convey the point there, however, it has certainly been adequately conveyed subsequently. But that's OK, I give up. It's trashed and gone anyway.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 278 by AdminAsgara, posted 11-26-2005 1:24 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 281 of 300 (263329)
    11-26-2005 1:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 279 by jar
    11-26-2005 1:26 PM


    OK I'll lay it out again
    Yes, of course it may be challenged but not on this thread, which is about something else. That it may be challenged has been acknowledged many times already -- but not on this thread. It is in FACT challenged all the time at EvC. But this thread was trying to do something different for a change. However, the evos seem to be unable to stand back and just look at the fact of the presuppositions without getting into the same old EvC argument. I am aware this is a hard thing to do for any on either side, but I HAVE carefully explained the situation on this thread.
    The idea that science has no presuppositions has been answered many times. The presupposition I'm talking about is that science is given the status, the authority, the right, to judge all science questions and to judge the Bible too. This IS a presupposition and it RULES at EvC. It should not be hard to recognize this simple fact. And its being a presupposition does not mean it can't be challenged but I can guarantee you that it will not be yielded to any challenge, as the Biblical authority will not be yielded by a YEC.
    This message has been edited by Faith, 11-26-2005 01:34 PM
    This message has been edited by Faith, 11-26-2005 01:35 PM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 279 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 1:26 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 283 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 1:38 PM Faith has replied
     Message 286 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2005 1:50 PM Faith has replied

    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 282 of 300 (263330)
    11-26-2005 1:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 276 by nwr
    11-26-2005 1:07 PM


    Re: Symbolic vs. literal readings
    How silly. Science does not, and cannot judge the Bible, for science cannot judge anything. Scientists make judgements. But science is an institution, not a person, and has no capability of judgement. And even though scientists make judgements, most do not judge the Bible. It is the historian, not the scientists, who judge the Bible.
    This has been answered many times already.
    I am talking about the position held by the science side at EvC that the Bible may be subjected to scientific inquiry, and this position is enforced.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 276 by nwr, posted 11-26-2005 1:07 PM nwr has not replied

    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 283 of 300 (263331)
    11-26-2005 1:38 PM
    Reply to: Message 281 by Faith
    11-26-2005 1:34 PM


    Thank you Faith
    Yes, of course it may be challenged but not on this thread, which is about something else.
    Thank you Faith. Just let me make sure that I understand what you are saying.
    It is prefectly alright in other threads to challenge your premise.
    Is that correct?

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 281 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 1:34 PM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 284 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 1:40 PM jar has replied

    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 284 of 300 (263332)
    11-26-2005 1:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 283 by jar
    11-26-2005 1:38 PM


    Re: Thank you Faith
    Of course it is all right to challenge it in other threads. It is done all the time on EvC threads and I have participated in many of them.
    This thread is about the META issue of the overall debate. Why is that so hard to grasp?
    This message has been edited by Faith, 11-26-2005 01:42 PM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 283 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 1:38 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 285 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 1:45 PM Faith has not replied

    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 285 of 300 (263333)
    11-26-2005 1:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 284 by Faith
    11-26-2005 1:40 PM


    Re: Thank you Faith
    Why is that so hard to grasp?
    Because in your OP you stated...
    Nope. To demand evidence is simply to demand that I submit to the very presupposition I'm saying is a contradiction with my own presupposition, typical at EvC but exactly what I'm challenging.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 284 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 1:40 PM Faith has not replied

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