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Author | Topic: God says this, and God says that | |||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: That isn't my argument. It is your perpetual misrepresentation of my argument.
quote: There is no reason you should. You should, however, stop repeating it with my name attatched.
quote: Good thing it isn't my reasoning, eh? But lets just suppose we use your reasoning in the sciences? That we don't need evidence BEFORE believing?
quote: You claim that people do the work associated with Santa and that this is evidence that Santa is not real. I applied the same reasoning to your religion. Surely you know that. I bet you don't like that, but you know it.
quote: ... not the best reason, gene.
quote: But Santa's workshop is invisible to our technology I can ad hoc just as well as you.
quote: It doesn't matter. There is no more evidence for one than the other. That people believe or disbelieve is irrelevant.
quote: God, by definition, does do stuff. This stuff ought to be identifiable. It isn't. You have even told me not to expect anything distinguishable from coincidence.
quote: Defined as such, everything is faith based; even science within what we'd both agree is its proper domain.
quote: Denying the possibility isn't the issue, as you seem to not realize.
quote: quote: Well, no, not really. It is exactly the point of my example.
quote: Why would God not leave physical evidence? This you've asserted but never explained? God heals the sick? hmm.... there ought to be evidence. You reduce your God to no more than a phantom.
quote: And you state my point for me. God ought to leave evidence. There ought to be SOMETHING. Since there isn't any evidence, then I conclude there isn't any god. It is the same logic, whether you like it or not. You can define god to be further and further outside of nature, but it only makes god smaller and smaller.
quote: And because of this it is reasonable to believe?
quote: In fact, I think it should be damned obvious. But nothing so far has pointed that direction.
quote: Too much b-movie science fiction...
quote: I can't believe you actually making this quibble.
quote: If it were the dominant religion? If the country were populated by my clones, would you object then? Would you fight it? ------------------
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funkmasterfreaky Inactive Member |
quote: I have your evidence though you will deny it and explain it away. A friend of mine shattered his hip snowboarding, this was the second season in a row he had done so. So he was back in traction in the hospital to have the same hip repaired again. The elders of the church came in to pray for him and the very next day when the doctors took more x-rays the hip was completely healed. Not even traces of the fractures, completely and painlessly healed. I was a counsellor at a bible camp one year, and our counsellors suddenly began to fall ill. Before we knew it we barely had enough staff to continue. We all got together for a prayer meeting, within an hour of this meeting counsellors who had been extremely sick started coming out of the cabins in perfect health. One winter when I was young I remember we had a propane furnace in the little trailer our family was living in. At the beggining of the winter when my dad checked the guage on the propane tank he found that it was nearly empty. My parents were in financial trouble at the time barely finding enough money to keep a few groceries in the cupboards. So unable to afford to fill the propane tank my father just didn't bother looking at the rest of the winter. It was one of the more brutal winters I recall being -40* celcius most of the winter. Our furnace kept on going and going. There is no way that the propane should even have lasted a month let alone the whole winter. Well like the woman and the oil that propane just kept flowing and our furnace kept running, ran all winter. Didn't run out until dad made enough money in the spring to buy some propane. This is God caring for his faithful. Healing the sick, performing modern day miracles. I got lots more johnny if you want pages and pages of miraculous things I have seen God do. Note these are not second hand stories, all personal experience. ------------------saved by grace
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3823 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: You said that prior bias always causes spurious "evidence" to be found, ie, if you believe something you always start seeing evidence for it. As I said, that's a notion very common in Creationism, that evolution bias in the science is generating spurious evidence. Are you supporting their assertion? Or, "since it isn't your reasoning," are you retracting?
quote: Then state your argument.
quote: Then you admit that atheism is faith-based, just as my religion is faith-based? Or do you seek a redefinition?
quote: Bad analogy. Santa Claus is supposed to generate a physical, tangible result: presents under the tree. Therefore if there are no presents, there is no Santa. However, God is not supposed to place presents under the tree, or to miraculously build anything. That's not a part of our model of God, like it is a part of the Santa myth. Kids expect Santa to do something tangible every Christmas eve. God's believers generally have no such expectation. Nobody expects a brand new building to appear miraculously. If they did they wouldn't donate money for it. Also, in the faulty Santa analogy, the presents are delivered covertly to decieve children into believing Claus was there. That's not happening in Christianity, the expectation of a miracle isn't there anyway.
quote: Curious you insist on using an analogy I have already demonstrated to be faulty.
quote: But we do use my reasoning in the sciences. In the sciences, we normally don't *disbelieve* a new idea or concept before testing it. We certainly do not use our personal incredulity as an excuse to wave it away. If science reasoned the way you do, progress would never be made because no new hypotheses would ever be tested. Besides, if you have no evidence that there is no God, what room do you have to chide us for no evidence for our belief that there is indeed a God. (And it is possible to prove a negative, by the way. Would you like an example exercise?)
quote: If I were a believer in Santa Claus, and you were too, we could have a theological debate of sorts, because that has nothing at all to do with the version of the myth I was taught. The way I see it, since you realized the first version of your analogy failed, you are actually trying to alter the myth to make your analogy better. But the "present" argument still kills the analogy. Santa Claus is expected to leave a physical imprint, God is not. However, you have attempted to create a strawman of Christianity, in which we believe God does our construction work for us. I don't know of any sect that believes that.
quote: This is interesting. You're trying to disprove my theology by telling me what I believe. That's not a very honest way to go, but since I'm curious I will ask: what "stuff" does God do and how might we identify it? Further, are you now claiming that belief in God is falsifiable? And that, by extension, Intelligent Design is a viable science? Besides if we can test God and we can test God's influence in our universe why not test God's influence on biology? And if it is testable, it must allow us to make predictions, and be falsifiable--therefore it is a science, regardless of whether or not God is real. You opened this door, not me.
quote: If you had enough such "coincidences" perhaps you would believe. However I have the feeling that you will rationalize away just about anything as a coincidence, no matter how extraordinary. That is why I made that comment in the first place.
quote: To you, God is a phantom because God works according to your faith. And even if God did heal a sick person right in front of you, what is to stop you from attributing it to "natural" causes? In fact, in a universe with "natural" causes everywhere but an omnipotent and omniscient God present, how do you know anything that happens is "natural"? That's my problem with your beliefs, they are every bit as unfalsifiable and self-fulfilling as you claim mine are. A "miracle"? No only a disease naturally going into remission, just as it would have done without prayer. You pray for three things and get all those things? Only coincidence! The self-fulfilling beliefs of the atheist are exactly like what they claim to be the self-fulfilling beliefs of the theist.
quote: Actually I spent quite a bit of time explaining how God is different from all your analogies, and how they would leave evidence and God would not. Please try to introduce new information, rather than merely repeating yourself.
quote: This is interesting. Are you saying that Christians are "stupid", "evil", and "dishonest" because they are the dominant religion? Do you spend all your time fighting Christians instead of Wiccans, Muslims, and Hare Krishnas simply because the Christians are the biggest target? Hardly philosophically sound motivation. [This message has been edited by gene90, 12-11-2002]
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3823 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Here, here.
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John Inactive Member |
quote: quote: Is it logical to claim that he does? Reasonable? No, gene. Reasonable is 'I don't know' as you keep pointing out. So why are you not agnostic? You apparently object to being called unreasonable. Why do you not take the reasoanable option?
quote: In case you haven't noticed, that I have no evidence for God is the point.
quote: Consider the perfect crime. The perpetrator leaves no evidence behind. Nothing. But we have suspects. The family is always suspect, right? Do you walk up to one of those suspects and say "Well, I have no evidence for your guilt, but none against it either. But we are going to arrest and try you anyway?" I hope not. Why? Because it isn't reasonable. The arrested could be guilty, but so could the other suspects or someone no one has thought to question. Now suppose that some faction decides that the suspect is guilty and proceeds to distribute information to that effect. So strong does this movement become that laws are written to reflect its ideology. Is it unreasonable to fight back? Is it "faith-based" to declare the movement baseless?
quote: I never said I reject everything for which I don't have direct sensory experience. You do like to misrepresent. I also never said that I "reject" no sensory information. I don't, or wouldn't, reject it IF it existed. I do not believe it does.
quote: I don't know that, but I am also confident that if there is a God, or extra physical principle, of some kind it is so far removed from anything we've yet conceived that I really don't have to worry about offending it, nor will I have to worry about retracting anything I have said about Christianity.
quote: Sorry, but no I don't. This, in fact, is the question that started me down the road I am on and led me where I am. I can't answer this question via any means I know.
quote: Nor do I except in the context of these debates. Frankly, if you or your church can distribute what I believe are lies, I can distribute the contrary view.
quote: Then both are wrong. Perhaps something like this is true. I'll let you know after I die. Oh... but sadly... this didn't work for Houdini so I'll do my best.
quote: I doubt it. Surely you aren't so shallow as to believe that site is the whole of my being?
quote: I could, however, start walking and see what is there. This I cannot do when looking for your god because I have to BELIEVE, according to you, before the evidence appears.
quote: Believing in the street has nothing to do with whether I leave my home. And I don't need my memory or faith to stumbled upon a road. I know. I've been lost in the woods before. I do need FAITH before the evidence magically appears. You are missing that last part.
quote: Perhaps. But you could come along and say "there is a road that-a-way" And I'd believe you right up until you said "but you have to believe in it really really hard or it won't be there." This is something you tell children.
quote: I have heard the same from countless Christians directed toward my kind. Hell, it shows up on these boards all the time. I don't whine that "PosterX called my wife an idiot, cause he said atheists are stupid." Can't you keep this stuff in context? ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: I think your problem, gene, is that you aren't an insider....
quote: You say walk with god, I say walk with a crutch and a pacifier.
quote: Does a disbelief in quarks excuse you from the search? Nope. You check and see, and move on. But there is no checking for God and no seeing without first assuming and believing that he exists.
quote: God is what happens when you give up, or when the world is too hard to bear without a blankie.
quote: I read. None of them are sacrosanct. You missed that point. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Wow. Four comments irritate you, one of them A QUESTION ( note the question marks ) and you mark the whole post as flippant and fly off the handle? As for the others, why I posted what I did in response ought to be obvious to someone not in a religious fervor. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: I would be embarrassed. I don't believe it, except in the context of religion. It does take, in my opinion, a significant intellectual dishonesty to believe any religion.
quote: Gee, I am sorry that the worst people I have ever known have called themselves Christian. I can't change this FACT. And I won't retract it because you don't like it.
quote: Study your history gene. I'd be willing to bet that 60% of your ancestors married somewhere within the range I suggest. Are they all pedophiles? And many, I'll wager, well before that. You come from a family of pedophiles? We all do. Why? Study some history. Current age of consent laws are higher than in the past. Did morality change with time? Age of consent laws also change absurdly state to state. Does this make sense to you? It must, since one point of my article was the analysis of this. Do you think everyone matures at the same rate, and at 18 ( or 16, or 21, or 14, depending on where you are ) something magical happens to someone's psyche? Apparently you do. Do people five mile apart but in different states mature at different rates? Apparently they do.
quote: Yeah, it is gene. And people are welcome to hop on over and see what an ass you are being by distorting what I said. The point isn't about pedaphilia, it is about the government, and the scientific community, censoring science because it contradicts accepted wisdom. But you know that. ------------------
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forgiven Inactive Member |
Originally posted by schrafinator:
quote: quote: i believe i said "account for" but i may have inadvertantly said explain... in any case, the materialist denies the existence of entites required to deny anything...
quote: and *i* pointed out that materialists can't account for either, yet borrow from the worldview of those who have no such inconsistencies
quote: i've my above paragraph several times and i don't see "explain" in it... i do say "utilize"... why not just read the paragraph again and argue against *it* and not something it doesn't say?
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John Inactive Member |
quote: I'm not saying that at all. I'm not against religious tolerance. I'm tolerant as all get out-- WITH PEOPLE. My mom is Christian as are my sisters. We get along fine. I know quite a few Jews as well, some of them VERY orthodox. We get along fine. I respect people based on what I know of the person. But ideas are a different thing altogether.
quote: I could clean it up gene, and say the ideas of christianity are 'stupid' and etc, but the implications would be the same. Sugar coating makes it better? Don't think so.
quote: You seem to have a problem with my saying that the worst people I have ever known are Christains. This isn't a statement about a stereotype but about people I could name.
quote: Nope. Missed that actually.
quote: More like counter-evangelical really.... I'm not utterly convinced that everyone else is deluded, but I challenge anyone to demonstrate otherwise.
quote: ooooooo.... so mysterious.... demons? guilt? what am I fighting?
quote: Glad that is out in the open. Let's see Webster's has "a person obstinantly or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices" Obstinate? Perversely adhering to an opinion, purpose, or course IN SPITE OF REASON. Well, strike that. I have reason and do not adhere to anything that has been disproven. Intolerant? Unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters? Unwilling to grnat or share social, political, or proffessional rights? Wow. Well, strike two for you theory. Devoted? Well, I'll give you that, though it depends on the definition you use. But devoted to opinions? My opinions change over time and with new information, so I can't really be devoted can I? Devoted to prejudice? A preconceived judgement or opinion? How much consideration must one give a subject to avoid the charge of committing this error? Is all my life long enough? Strike that, then. Well, that leaves .... hmmmm.... nothing.
quote: Nope. It was bigot, and the charge is unfounded. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: So will continue to misrepresent me and my position until when? Really, I'd like to know. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: My character was not the issue. You imported it, presumable because you didn't have an actual response.
quote: Nice try but this is a rather late runner in the race. If it was a point you meant to make it could have been made without the lies and the slander.
quote: Your purpose is defamation then? Good show. Sadly, the purpose of the thread is quite different.
quote: ah.... but you forget the part about evidence, that YECs and you DON'T have.
quote: More assumptions about my life. Prove this crap or take it back. What do you know about me? Tell us all? What PRECISELY is so dirty about my life?
quote: It is the same quest. Only within the confines of a dogmatic religion is this not the case, and that is your problem not mine.
quote: I've done all of that. I was raised doing that.
quote: Does it make you feel better to call me lazy? I hope so, because it is one more lies from the good christian ( who objects to the insult of christians ). The arrogance is mind numbing.
quote: Respectfully, you have no idea what you are talking about. You don't have a clue what I spend and have spent my time doing. But I guess it makes you feel better to post baseless garbage than to face the logical untenablility of your faith.
quote: Well, gene, though the distiction may not be clear to you. I don't have a vendetta against GOD, per se. What I do have is evidence against the religion of Christianity.
quote: Yes. And it is not a pretense. I said earlier, though you refuse to believe it, that I quite respected you prior to this assault. I'll readily admit that some Christians do not fit my averaged out portrayal. I would have included you in that category, but I must conclude that I was wrong.
quote: I wish for five minute, just five minutes, you could understand how insulting that is to me. The worst accusations you could make against me personally are embedded in there. Except for that stupidity about the pedophilia, this is the worst you've pitched. And you have pitched it repeatedly throughout this thread. Your first post to me carried these same elements. So hearing you whine about your religion being under fire is getting very old.
quote: Remember? You never explained how that works.
quote: Your source does not your translations. A partial and warped presentation is a lie. I hate to break that to you. And, it is a lie even if done for the love of God.
quote: Point me to where I have said "Gene is a ... insert lie here... "
quote: BS. This is a means to justify bad behavior. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: I see you are conveniently above the standards to which you wish to hold the rest of us.
quote: Too many to count. You see, I have this terrible problem. I can't stop thinking. I try, but I just can't stop thinking.
quote: No. It just makes me realize that the two of you are more alike than I would have suspected. With nos, I made the mistake of criticising Wicca. And nos launched into lengthy attack on my character, complete with the very same misrepresentations you chose. Misrepresentations, chosen, I suspect because of the ease of misuse and because of the sensitive nature of the topics. Certain subjects carry so much emotional charge that once lit, spiral out of control leaving reason far behind. These are the fires you tries to light. And you are a bastard for it.
quote: So you believe. I felt and feel that your first post to me and most of your others are severely lacking in quality.
quote: Nice that you finally realize that I wasn't.
quote: I'm not sure what you are talking about, but it is simple the way I see it. Faith is belief without evidence-- evidence of things not seen, that sort of thing. How exactly do you earn that? What kind of work do you do to earn it? And if you earn it, it isn't belief without evidence. Faith earned through works should be measurable-- at least as measurable as most psychological studies pre-high-tech lab.
quote: I can sit here and choose pretty much anything and build an unassailable faith around it. It isn't that difficult. I was raised Southern Baptist and I have since believed in several other religious structures, before settling on the idea that none of them make sense.
quote: Ok. But I still don't know how this comes from the sentence I asked about.
quote: muchos gracias
quote: No. I have a problem with WHY the House did what they did and how they did it. It was blatant censorship of a scientific study. I don't care how contraversial the result turned out to be, the study was done properly and made it into a peer reviewed journal. I doubt this study has stood the test of the two or three years since I read the report which prompted the article. Actually changing laws based on one study would be idiotic, especially one with this much potential to do harm. And by the way, there have been several people very close to me who were victimized as children, one in particular suffered very badly -- meaning both that it happened an unbelievable number of times and that the consequences were pretty rough too. So, in short, you are really stepping out of line on this one.
quote: The title is almost verbatim what this study was labeled by groups who were up in arms about it several years ago. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Is it wrong to be critical of ideas? If yes, what are you doing here and if no, drop it. Stereotype? Funk, everything is a stereotype if you break it down. Would you object to "Christians are honest, hard-working people?" Well, that is a stereotype too. Guess we'll ditch that. You cannot talk about groups without stereotyping, its just that people only complain when they don't like what is said. A stereotype is a concept used to think, and speak, in general terms. The trick is to not apply the general concept to individuals. That is when it causes trouble.
quote: Talk to gene about that. It is hard not to respond to being called a pedophile. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Personal experience for you. Second hand for me. If you could document anything I'd be interested. I have heard similar stories from other people as well, but with different gods inserted into the appropriate blanks. These have all been second hand to me, but first hand to the one who told me, just like your stories. ------------------
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