Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   In defense of nihilism
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 76 of 306 (264123)
11-29-2005 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by robinrohan
11-28-2005 8:53 PM


Re: Proof of God
but then it will be too late to change your mind.
quote:
Why is He playing this game with us?
I agree with what I've seen of Iano's answer, but I think I'd just add that God is invisible Spirit and He seeks those to worship Him "in spirit and in truth," rather than in outward show, because the flesh is fallen and cannot truly know Him. God speaks in the spirit of man, and if He revealed Himself to mere flesh -- more than He has already done in the miracles attested in the Bible -- people would be compelled to believe but also hate Him, because that is the nature of the flesh, that it is "at enmity with God." He seeks true lovers, in other words, spirit to spirit. Through faith in the sacrifice of Christ the spirit of man that died at the Fall is regenerated and begins to know God again.
This message has been edited by Faith, 11-29-2005 12:48 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by robinrohan, posted 11-28-2005 8:53 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 306 (264125)
11-29-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by nwr
11-28-2005 9:24 PM


Re: the concept of "purpose"
Here are several possible meanings for "purpose":
individual purpose - it is my purpose to work toward making this world a better place than it would otherwise be;
convention purpose - we conventionally say that the purpose of the chair is for sitting;
relational purpose - robinrohan sees the purpose of the chair as something he can sit on while imbibing his evening refreshment; the furniture manufacturer sees the purpose of the chair as a sale item to bring in profits;
three way relational purpose - pastor A says that the God (B) made person (C) for the purpose of singing His praises.
Your individual purpose sounds like a goal to me. People have goals, but they were not presumably designed by some being to pursue that goal.
If you want to say that the purpose of a chair is to make money for the maker, that's fine with me. In any case, it has a purpose because it was made by a being with some purpose in mind. Assuming we were not, we have no purpose in that sense.
Of course we can devise a purpose if we want to: "My purpose for living on this earth is to write funny stuff." But that's quite different from being designed by somebody else for a particular purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by nwr, posted 11-28-2005 9:24 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 11-29-2005 12:53 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 82 by nwr, posted 11-29-2005 1:08 PM robinrohan has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 78 of 306 (264126)
11-29-2005 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by robinrohan
11-29-2005 12:49 PM


Re: the concept of "purpose"
I haven't been following this discussion of purpose, but in case it hasn't come up I'd give this definition of the purpose of humanity as written in the Westminster Catechism:
“The chief end of man is to worship God and to enjoy Him forever.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by robinrohan, posted 11-29-2005 12:49 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 306 (264128)
11-29-2005 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by iano
11-29-2005 4:32 AM


Re: The accidental nature of life
Thus we can say the christian believes there are objective values and the nihilist needs to believe there are objective values. One or other is the lie that is closest to the truth
The nihilist does not need to believe that there are objective values. But the wise man is pragmatic. One might be an unwise nihilist, of course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by iano, posted 11-29-2005 4:32 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by iano, posted 11-29-2005 2:14 PM robinrohan has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 80 of 306 (264129)
11-29-2005 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by crashfrog
11-29-2005 12:12 PM


Re: Proof of God
iano writes:
I asked God, out of my own free will, if he would do so. And he did.
Crash writes:
I repeated your experiment but was unable to duplicate your results. Can you explain?
Oh ye of little faith...of course I can! By way of analogy might be best. Imagine you are addressing the boss:
"Give me a pay rise because I deserve it"
"Give me a pay rise or I'll leave"
"I would like a pay rise - but will trust your judgment"
"Give me a pay rise you worm"
"Can I have a pay rise, I want to buy a new car"
"Someone else got a pay rise therefore I should get one
Get the picture Crash? There are many ways to ask. It is reasonable to suppose not all ways of asking will result in the desired response

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2005 12:12 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2005 1:12 PM iano has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 306 (264131)
11-29-2005 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by iano
11-29-2005 5:12 AM


Re: Proof of God
Now why would someone, who had to pick from one or other of these two (apparently) unprovable positions, choose for the one devoid of hope?
To decide to believe some doctrine just because it offered hope would be dishonorable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by iano, posted 11-29-2005 5:12 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by iano, posted 11-29-2005 2:19 PM robinrohan has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 82 of 306 (264132)
11-29-2005 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by robinrohan
11-29-2005 12:49 PM


Re: the concept of "purpose"
In any case, it has a purpose because it was made by a being with some purpose in mind.
Thanks for clarifying which meaning of "purpose" that you had in mind.
In that case, I was made by my parents and I cannot know for what purpose. Perhaps they were doing something for a different purpose, and I was merely a side effect.

said by a creationist: I am saying we always only witness "poofs." Poofs are basic to what consitutes physical reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by robinrohan, posted 11-29-2005 12:49 PM robinrohan has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 83 of 306 (264133)
11-29-2005 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by iano
11-29-2005 1:04 PM


Re: Proof of God
Get the picture Crash? There are many ways to ask. It is reasonable to suppose not all ways of asking will result in the desired response
Apparently you didn't understand. I repeated your experiment. In other words, I asked the same way you did.
But I couldn't reproduce your results. So, can you explain?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by iano, posted 11-29-2005 1:04 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by iano, posted 11-29-2005 1:44 PM crashfrog has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 84 of 306 (264140)
11-29-2005 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by crashfrog
11-29-2005 1:12 PM


Re: Proof of God
Are you talking about a form of words? Or are you talking about the heart behind them? God unlike your boss hears the words but also hears the heart behind them. Maybe you do want God - I don't know. But it is according to his timing that your heart will be in a position to ask him - from the heart. He needs to prepare you and lead you to himself (all without affecting your free will and you don't strike me as the most malleable willed person I know (it takes one to know one )
And if you have a problem with his sovereignty and method then that, I suggest, would be ample demonstration that you are not prepared to subject yourself to him. Your way is never better than his. And you can't subject yourself to him if he doesn't enable you to do that. And if you complain about that then you are again showing the same rebelliousness that Adam showed.
If you find yourself wanting him but he isn't coming then assume that its something up with you, something you need to learn. Trust him. If you are genuine then you should have no problem asking him to help you get there. It is a process and the rate at which it goes is perhaps related to the degree to which you are prepared not to resist. Note: it is not what you do - it is what you don't do. Don't resist. Ask for help. Be patient. You will buck and toss but he expects that and it in no way causes him to turn his back on you. If it is him you are seeking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2005 1:12 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2005 1:54 PM iano has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 85 of 306 (264142)
11-29-2005 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by iano
11-29-2005 1:44 PM


Re: Proof of God
Are you talking about a form of words? Or are you talking about the heart behind them?
You said you asked without believing.
I'm duplicating the same procedure. But I can't seem to replicate your results. Again, can you explain?
If you find yourself wanting him but he isn't coming then assume that its something up with you, something you need to learn.
Let me offer you the same advice. If you find yourself wanting him and he does come, assume that there's something up with you, something you need to learn about what is real and what is just your imagination.
Like I said, I've duplicated your experimental methods, to the letter, but can't seem to replicate your results. Telling me "oh, there's something you didn't do" isn't an answer to that because I've done everything you've done; believed everything you've believed; had the exact same attitude you did.
But no results. Can you explain, or not?
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 11-29-2005 01:54 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by iano, posted 11-29-2005 1:44 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by iano, posted 11-29-2005 2:21 PM crashfrog has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 86 of 306 (264143)
11-29-2005 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by PaulK
11-29-2005 12:28 PM


Re: Proof of God
PaulK writes:
How does just knowing something trample on your free will ?
It doesn't in itself. It is how the knowledge was arrived at. Rape and making love involve sexual intercourse but there is a world of difference between them. One involves the trampling on free will, the other doesn't. The person who knows God exists can never again exercise their free will to say "I don't believe nor do I want to believe in God" Fine if they chose to relinquish that right. Not fine if they haven't
And how would asking to know it make a difference ?
"Make love to me Johnny". An act of free will. No trampling involved
I wouldn't think that God would need an explicit request - after all how could we possibly direct it correctly without knowledge of God ?
It is not a form of words. I can know a woman wants to make love by all kinds of unmistakable signs. I don't need her to ask. But those signs must be there. Otherwise there is no invite. Granted, he draws people to himself (how would anyone know where to 'seek' by themselves). He will woo and encourage those signs to be expressed. But he won't force where he is not wanted
So I would think that valuing and wanting to know the truth would be enough. Why then, do I not have proof ?
The main problem that God is trying to rectify is a distortion of position: God on the throne, man subject to God (I can here the howls from here, sounds awful doesn't it? "Man subject too..."). Man wants to be on the throne. Man is a rebel
This is witnessed by statement like that above. "I think...be enough". God has a problem with that. If God decided that you would have to crawl on your knees around the equator then that would have to be good enough for you. Your's is not to question him (although you can me) only to follow what he says. The thing is he doesn't ask you to crawl around on your knees. He simply asks that you acknowledge your current position before him. And none of what he asks is unreasonable:
- I am a hopeless sinner. I offend you and disobey you every day
- I am sorry (or should be) for doing that. I would like to stop but can't.
- I deserve to be cast out for what I've done but you offer me a way out through your son who you gave up for me
- thank you
No one can feel these things in their heart without him helping them to do so. In the meantime we get:
So I would think that valuing and wanting to know the truth would be enough. Why then, do I not have proof ?
Can you see how the lack of acceptance of his authority is exhibited here? Don't worry if you can't. Me, I was kicking up and screaming blue murder almost up to the moment he turned on the light. He does love us afterall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by PaulK, posted 11-29-2005 12:28 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by PaulK, posted 11-29-2005 2:28 PM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 87 of 306 (264145)
11-29-2005 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by robinrohan
11-29-2005 12:58 PM


Re: The accidental nature of life
robin writes:
One might be an unwise nihilist, of course.
I would say we could transpose the word wise/unwise for bi- /hetro. Bi-nhilism wants it cake and to eat it too
"There is no objective morality...Hey! stop thief" lacks the courage of it's convictions. Step into the breach, live nihilism to the full. So what if insanity lies at the end. It is at least honest.
Oops, there is no such thing as honesty either

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by robinrohan, posted 11-29-2005 12:58 PM robinrohan has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 88 of 306 (264146)
11-29-2005 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by robinrohan
11-29-2005 1:06 PM


Re: Proof of God
Robin writes:
To decide to believe some doctrine just because it offered hope would be dishonorable
Dishonourable? Spoken like a true bi-nihiist. But if one wasn't a nihilist then one is entitled to believe there is a purpose to life (for want of evidence to the contrary). And if one was to chose to believe something that offered to reveal this purpose then I don't see how that is dishonourable. One would beget the other perhaps

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by robinrohan, posted 11-29-2005 1:06 PM robinrohan has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 89 of 306 (264147)
11-29-2005 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by crashfrog
11-29-2005 1:54 PM


Re: Proof of God
crash writes:
had the exact same attitude you did.
Pray tell how you figure that Crash. Like have you a meter reading for it for us to compare?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2005 1:54 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2005 3:00 PM iano has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 90 of 306 (264150)
11-29-2005 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by iano
11-29-2005 2:03 PM


Re: Proof of God
quote:
The person who knows God exists can never again exercise their free will to say "I don't believe nor do I want to believe in God" Fine if they chose to relinquish that right. Not fine if they haven't
So far as I cna see the only exercise of free will in that is whether to lie or tell the truth - which they still have. Actually believing or not is not an exercise of free will.
As for your point about asking you neglect to mention that we are not truly in a position to ask properly - and God supposedly already knows what we want. I never suggested that it was a form of words.
quote:
The main problem that God is trying to rectify is a distortion of position: God on the throne, man subject to God (I can here thehowls from here, sounds awful doesn't it? "Man subject too..."). Man wants to be on the throne. Man is a rebel
This is witnessed by statement like that above. "I think...be enough". God has a problem with that. If God decided that you would have to crawl on your knees around the equator then that would have to be good enough for you. Your's is not to question him (although you can me) only to follow what he says. The thing is he doesn't ask you to crawl around on your knees. He simply asks that you acknowledge your current position before him. And none of what he asks is unreasonable:
Well since he has a problem with reasonable statements and expects us to "acknowledge" something that we do not know to be true you contradict yourself. You can't assert that God does make unreasonable demands and then insist that he does not.
quote:
So I would think that valuing and wanting to know the truth would be enough. Why then, do I not have proof ?
Can you see how the lack of acceptance of his authority is exhibited here? Don't worry if you can't. Me, I was kicking up and screaming blue murder almost up to the moment he turned on the light. He does love us after all
You confuse God's authority with your authority. God isn't telling me anything - you are. So there is no challenge to God's authority at all..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by iano, posted 11-29-2005 2:03 PM iano has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024