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Author Topic:   In defense of nihilism
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 91 of 306 (264159)
11-29-2005 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by iano
11-29-2005 2:21 PM


Re: Proof of God
Pray tell how you figure that Crash. Like have you a meter reading for it for us to compare?
You've been talking about your attitude the whole time, here, and in other threads. And what you're describing is the attitude that I had, too.
Unless you're not being truthful with us? I can't read your mind, no. But I can read your posts, and if the attitudes you're describing aren't what you actually felt, then what are you doing, exactly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by iano, posted 11-29-2005 2:21 PM iano has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 306 (264334)
11-29-2005 9:24 PM


a story for Faith and iano
The Ingrates
I
"We must not," he said outloud one night to no one, "expect gratitude from those who know not what we do, from whom we either hide away as if they were lepers, or whom we deceive with disguises, clothed as they are clothed, speaking as they speak."
There was once a very powerful and very rich old man who lived up in the mountains. He had a son and an adopted daughter and they played together in the beautiful valley. The old man owned all the land for miles around. The son and daughter (whom he thought of almost as a real daughter) never saw anyone but the old man and some hired help about the place. But one day they did something he had told them not to do: they read a few pages out of a book he had forbidden. The book was, in itself, a good book. He had forbidden it because he thought it was over their heads.
The old man grew incredibly angry and told them, "You must leave this valley now and live on your own."
So they were sent into the desert down below the mountains where they suffered for lack of food and lack of shelter from the winter winds. But, miraculously, they survived. Little did they know that the old man had his hired hands observing them and reporting to the old man how they were doing. The old man ordered an irrigation ditch to be redirected so that the water flowed into a stream down into the desert, and he used a very subtle trick to incapacitate some edible wildlife and have them deposited near the lean-to where the son and daughter dwelt, so that they would have food to eat. The old man had many arts, and he injected a serum into the deer and wild hog that made them slow to run and easy to kill. Otherwise his son, who was an inexperienced spearsman, would never have been able to kill the animals. But the son did not realize this, for he was innocent in the ways of the world.
So the son and daughter survived and produced progeny, for they eventually coupled.
Many years passed, and their sons and daughters grew up and committed fornication in the desert sand. And in the fullness of time a village grew up there and became a little kingdom of its own, thanks to the secret efforts of the old man. The son and daughter passed away, after catching a chill from the desert wind.
One day the old man--he came from a family of long-livers--decided he wanted to visit what was after all his only family. "We must make it up," he said to himself. But he was a very strange old man, and having lived by himself for so long, had developed some queer notions. "They will not recognize me, " he thought. "None now living have ever seen me, though I know they have heard of me" (for he had many spies). "I will not wear my finery to embarrass their rags. I will dress down for the occasion." So he betook himself to find some rags.
Then he came down from the mountain and walked among his grandsons and granddaughters and even great-grandchildren, and they did not know him. Only, a few seemed almost to recognize him. He tried to hint at who he was by being very generous with his money and performing philanthropic deeds. After some little time, they grew curious about him.
"Who are you, old man?" one youngster asked.
"Who do people say I am?"
"Some say you are the legendary man of the mountain, the sire of us all. Are you?"
"Thou sayest."
The old man had a habit of talking in riddles.
(to be continued)
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 11-29-2005 08:50 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 11-29-2005 11:04 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 98 by iano, posted 11-30-2005 7:17 AM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 101 by Omnivorous, posted 11-30-2005 10:07 AM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 103 by robinrohan, posted 11-30-2005 11:07 AM robinrohan has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 93 of 306 (264353)
11-29-2005 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by robinrohan
11-29-2005 9:24 PM


Re: a story for Faith and iano
Your parody of God fails on many points but a main one is that God did not "become incredibly angry" with Adam and Eve. He sent them out of Eden as punishment as well as to keep them from the Tree of LIfe which would confirm them in evil forever if they ate of it, but He did none of it in anger. God also did nothing miraculous in order to provide for them. The world was less hospitable than Eden but no more inhospitable than anyone has encountered in hunting or farming for a living.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by robinrohan, posted 11-29-2005 9:24 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by robinrohan, posted 11-30-2005 7:57 AM Faith has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 306 (264359)
11-30-2005 12:20 AM


Nihilism Promotes Fear
If everyone were nihilists, we would all live in constant fear. Anarchy would reign with no enhibitions as to right or wrong. Last century, nearly a hundred million citizens were murdered by their own governments, mostly communistic. Nihilism is essentially what drives secularism. It is brutal with nobody to answer to, no higher power or code of ethics. If all were nihilists, the powerfully brutal would organize to enslave the whole planet to serve their nihilistic co-operative objectives with no regard to justice or civility. Hitler espoused his own version of hihilism. Had he prevailed, he'd have nihilized the whole planet to his own evil design, brutally eliminating all opposition.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Funkaloyd, posted 11-30-2005 3:27 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 97 by Modulous, posted 11-30-2005 7:06 AM Buzsaw has replied

Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 306 (264374)
11-30-2005 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Buzsaw
11-30-2005 12:20 AM


Re: Nihilism Promotes Fear
Your post borders on satire. Nihilized? I just about choked on that.
Nazism and communism are pretty much the exact opposite of nihilism. Millions of Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies and others were killed in the Holocaust because Nazism professed that there are objective moral truths: that homosexuality is wrong, for example.
In fact, pretty much every mass killing in the history of humanity has been committed in the name of morality and higher powers. Wars are often started for profit or land, but even then, warmongers have a habit of invoking morality and religion.
So, care to back up your assertions with some reality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Buzsaw, posted 11-30-2005 12:20 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by iano, posted 11-30-2005 6:52 AM Funkaloyd has replied
 Message 119 by Buzsaw, posted 11-30-2005 7:21 PM Funkaloyd has replied
 Message 120 by Buzsaw, posted 11-30-2005 7:25 PM Funkaloyd has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 96 of 306 (264392)
11-30-2005 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Funkaloyd
11-30-2005 3:27 AM


Re: Nihilism Promotes Fear
funkaloyd writes:
Nazism and communism are pretty much the exact opposite of nihilism. Millions of Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies and others were killed in the Holocaust because Nazism professed that there are objective moral truths: that homosexuality is wrong, for example.
Claiming something to be an objective moral truth is not the same as it actually being an objective moral truth. If you investigated where National Socialism and Communism derived their objective moral truths you would see that they invariably came from man-made philosophies. But man-made philosophies cannot be objective as it is not possible to prove that they are correct.
If there is any such thing as an objective truth it would require that truth to be established by an unchangeable and infallible entity. God. If one was claiming objective moral rights and wrongs one would have to base ones philosophy on God as the basis of it (not that that makes the philosophy an objective one)
As far as I am aware the underlying motivation of nazism's killing of jews, homosexuals, gyspies, criminals, slavics, intelligentia etc was to create an Ubermensch or Superman - which derives directly from the thinking of nihilisms messiah, Nietzsche. Similarily, communism had no place for God in it's Marxist-derived philosophy. Both Nietzsche and Marx were ardent athiests.
Using religion to further your goals says nothing about religion, only about that which you are prepared to do to further your goals
This message has been edited by iano, 30-Nov-2005 12:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Funkaloyd, posted 11-30-2005 3:27 AM Funkaloyd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Funkaloyd, posted 11-30-2005 7:44 AM iano has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 97 of 306 (264394)
11-30-2005 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Buzsaw
11-30-2005 12:20 AM


Re: Nihilism Promotes Fear
the powerfully brutal would organize to enslave the whole planet to serve their nihilistic co-operative objectives with no regard to justice or civility
Sounds like monarchy. I wondered, what would be an example of a 'nihilistic co-operative objective'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Buzsaw, posted 11-30-2005 12:20 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Buzsaw, posted 11-30-2005 6:56 PM Modulous has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 98 of 306 (264396)
11-30-2005 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by robinrohan
11-29-2005 9:24 PM


Re: a story for Faith and iano
If the parody fails it fails I think mainly in the order of its protagonists. The father and the children are all people. They are all of the same order. Your story has people, both in the story and outside it, considering the actions of the father in a way they feel is objective. This they may do being as they are, of the same order (at least in theory: mans thinking is subjective many would argue). But God is not of the same order of man. If he exists then he is patently unknown orders above man. So man evaluating the actions of God doesn't work anything like as easily. The created analysing the creator...?
It seems to me that the only way a man can know anything at all about the personality and motivations of the creator is if the creator reveals those things to man. Man can't work it up by himself. Even that may bring problems. One only has to peruse EvC Bible forums to see that when it comes to one area where God has revealed himself, things are anything but clear cut. He seems to have spoken, but the language used seems such as to allow subjective man to arrive at any number of conclusions as to what is being said. Patently further illumination from God is required if there is to be any chance of arriving at an objective understanding of what God is saying.
Whilst this might not provide any universal agreement there is nothing to say the illumination would be universal so disagreement is not a grounds for stating God doesn't illuminate. Neither is there any reason to think that if there was further illumination that this would be complete and that an individual, illuminated-to-a-degree, would understand it all. Thus even if some have some of it right there is no need to think anybody has it all right
To the person who remains totally unilluminated, things aren't clarified by others experience. As far as that person is concerned, all seem to claim to have received Gods further illumination and claim that they have the truth. Which is true, which is false. The unilluminated cannot tell.
So it seems to be a one-to-one deal. In order for man to know anything about God, he must realise that he is dependent, as an individual, on God to illuminate to him personally. Man dependant on God. That very thing that Adam sought to rid himself of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by robinrohan, posted 11-29-2005 9:24 PM robinrohan has not replied

Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 306 (264400)
11-30-2005 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by iano
11-30-2005 6:52 AM


Re: Nihilism Promotes Fear
iano writes:
Claiming something to be an objective moral truth is not the same as it actually being an objective moral truth.
But regardless, a nihilist wouldn't make the claim in the first place. If Buz (or you) can show that either Hitler or Stalin said something to the effect of "morality is nonsense, there is ultimately no such thing as right or wrong", then he (or you) may have a case. But even then, if a few dictators' actions can speak for nihilism itself, then what would 9/11 and the Inquisition say about belief in objective morality?
If you investigated where National Socialism and Communism derived their objective moral truths you would see that they invariably came from man-made philosophies. But man-made philosophies cannot be objective as it is not possible to prove that they are correct.
As opposed to Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Gnosticism?
If one was claiming objective moral rights and wrongs one would have to base ones philosophy on God as the basis of it.
Not necessarily. You could claim that these things are somehow intrinsic to nature, or the Universe.
This message has been edited by Funkaloyd, Thu, 01-Dec-2005 12:48 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by iano, posted 11-30-2005 6:52 AM iano has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 306 (264402)
11-30-2005 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
11-29-2005 11:04 PM


Re: a story for Faith and iano
Your parody of God fails on many points
I'll be bringing in some of your and Iano's ideas when I get a chance to continue it, and then you might find it less unsatisfactory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 11-29-2005 11:04 PM Faith has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 101 of 306 (264415)
11-30-2005 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by robinrohan
11-29-2005 9:24 PM


Re: a story for Faith and iano
Gee, I miss the snake.
Otherwise I like it much, though I think you're a bit easy on the old man.
I see Faith asserts that God was not "incredibly angry": IIRC, Faith has argued the necessity of God's wrath elsewhere, and if original sin didn't make him wrathful, what would? "Incredibly angry" seems like a fair paraphrase of wrathful.
I don't have my KJV here in the office, but I seem to recall that he was pretty po'd...they were "driven" from the Garden, the brandishment of a flaming sword barred their return, they were told to expect to live miserably and die, etc.
Was that just mild irritation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by robinrohan, posted 11-29-2005 9:24 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Modulous, posted 11-30-2005 10:55 AM Omnivorous has not replied
 Message 106 by Faith, posted 11-30-2005 11:44 AM Omnivorous has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 102 of 306 (264424)
11-30-2005 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Omnivorous
11-30-2005 10:07 AM


Re: a story for Faith and iano
God wasn't angry, He just cursed woman, cursed the serpent, cursed Adam, cursed the ground, planted a flaming sword and evicted them from the Garden...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Omnivorous, posted 11-30-2005 10:07 AM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 11-30-2005 11:36 AM Modulous has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 306 (264428)
11-30-2005 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by robinrohan
11-29-2005 9:24 PM


chapter I completed--for faith and iano
The Ingrates
I
"We must not," he said outloud one night to no one, "expect gratitude from those who know not what we do, from whom we either hide away as if they were lepers, or whom we deceive with disguises, clothed as they are clothed, speaking as they speak."
There was once a very powerful and very rich old man who lived up in the mountains. He had a son and an adopted daughter and they played together in the beautiful valley. The old man owned all the land for miles around. The son and daughter (whom he thought of almost as a real daughter) never saw anyone but the old man and some hired help about the place. But one day they did something he had told them not to do: they read a few pages out of a book he had forbidden. The book was, in itself, a good book. He had forbidden it because he thought it was over their heads.
The old man grew incredibly angry and told them, "You must leave this valley now and live on your own."
So they were sent into the desert down below the mountains where they suffered for lack of food and lack of shelter from the winter winds. But, miraculously, they survived. Little did they know that the old man had his hired hands observing them and reporting to the old man how they were doing. The old man ordered an irrigation ditch to be redirected so that the water flowed into a stream down into the desert, and he used a very subtle trick to incapacitate some edible wildlife and have them deposited near the lean-to where the son and daughter dwelt, so that they would have food to eat. The old man had many arts, and he injected a serum into the deer and wild hog that made them slow to run and easy to kill. Otherwise his son, who was an inexperienced spearsman, would never have been able to kill the animals. But the son did not realize this, for he was innocent in the ways of the world.
So the son and daughter survived and produced progeny, for they eventually coupled.
Many years passed, and their sons and daughters grew up and committed fornication in the desert sand. And in the fullness of time a village grew up there and became a little kingdom of its own, thanks to the secret efforts of the old man. The son and daughter passed away, after catching a chill from the desert wind.
One day the old man--he came from a family of long-livers--decided he wanted to visit what was after all his only family. "We must make it up," he said to himself. But he was a very strange old man, and having lived by himself for so long, had developed some queer notions. "They will not recognize me, " he thought. "None now living have ever seen me, though I know they have heard of me" (for he had many spies). "I will not wear my finery to embarrass their rags. I will dress down for the occasion." So he betook himself to find some rags.
Then he came down from the mountain and walked among his grandsons and granddaughters and even great-grandchildren, and they did not know him. Only, a few seemed almost to recognize him. He tried to hint at who he was by being very generous with his money and performing philanthropic deeds. After some little time, they grew curious about him.
"Who are you, old man?" one youngster asked.
"Who do people say I am?"
"Some say you are the legendary man of the mountain, the sire of us all. Are you?"
"Thou sayest."
The old man had a habit of talking in riddles.
He had been there a few weeks, staying at the only hotel in the little kingdom (by his standards a dump), when he began to get the lay of the land. It was obvious that the leaders were very corrupt. The old man decided to act. He got involved in the politics of the place and was, after he engaged in a particularly vociferous condemnation of their corrupt activities, framed for the crime of unlawful entry into the kingdom, judged guilty by a bribed jury, and banished. While he was sitting there in the shabby courtroom waiting for the verdict, flies buzzing about (one lit comically upon the bald pate of the judge), the old man could hardly control his mirth. He thought, "If they only knew who I am . . . but they are stupid." He gazed about at the eyes of those present and noted how petty their expressions were--and how rapacious. "My family," he thought, "has degenerated. They have lost their beauty in the desert."
There are some strange stories about what happened a few days afterward. Some said he sneaked back into town and was seen wandering about the streets. Others said they talked to him, and he told them not to touch him, for they were unclean. Another, rather wild tale, suggested that he was seen up at the top of the highest tree in town, laughing at them. These strange events--if they ever happened--grew into a legend and to this day people in the little kingdom speak of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by robinrohan, posted 11-29-2005 9:24 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by iano, posted 11-30-2005 12:25 PM robinrohan has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 104 of 306 (264433)
11-30-2005 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Modulous
11-30-2005 10:55 AM


Re: a story for Faith and iano
God wasn't angry, He just cursed woman, cursed the serpent, cursed Adam, cursed the ground, planted a flaming sword and evicted them from the Garden...
Calmly, and rationally and with regret, not angrily.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Modulous, posted 11-30-2005 10:55 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Modulous, posted 11-30-2005 11:43 AM Faith has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 105 of 306 (264434)
11-30-2005 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
11-30-2005 11:36 AM


Re: a story for Faith and iano
Aye, he calmly cursed mankind to suffer pain and misery for thousands upon thousands of years. He rationally cursed womankind to suffer even more pain for thousands of years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 11-30-2005 11:36 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by iano, posted 11-30-2005 12:09 PM Modulous has not replied

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