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Author Topic:   Near-death experiences and consciousness
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 76 of 145 (264411)
11-30-2005 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Wounded King
11-30-2005 4:25 AM


Re: Filling in
Well the studies authors claim that their research shows this, on the grounds that only a few patients recalled having an NDE while if it was a purely physiological effect of the lack of oxygen they contend that everyone should have had one. Of course patients may have had them and not remembered.
Sure. The same argument goes for ANY theory, though, physiological or not. So I don't feel this argument carries ANY weight at all in any direction.
Especially not in cognition. Too many possible factors for individual differences, and so little understanding of what those factors might be, or how to measure them.
It might be interesting to find out how the proportion reportinf NDEs compares to the usual proportions of recollection of dreams upon waking, or whether those who experienced NDEs were more prone than others to recalling their dreams.
That'd be interesting. So would putting the people through Loftus' "familial informant false narrative procedure", or "lost-in-the-mall" technique of implanting false memories, or tests for susceptibility to suggestion. Also would be interesting to try to correlate beliefs or exposure to such things (difficult, but you can operationalize this to some believable extend) and see what correlations (if any) fall out.
I think those are the starts to having a cognitive science of NDEs.
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Wounded King, posted 11-30-2005 4:25 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 77 of 145 (264423)
11-30-2005 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Ben!
11-30-2005 9:24 AM


Re: Filling in
Without more compelling information about memory reconstruction or evidence from NDE studies, I think it's dismissive to suggest that no conscious processes are happening during a flat EEG. I think the best we can do is to say, "yes, we don't know. Not enough data to find an adequate explanation."
I think that's pretty much what everyone here except randman have been saying. It's pretty much what the author said the The Lancet article.
There are really only a few conclusions that can be gathered from the article. One is that NDE's are not the norm. A second conclusion is that they are not common.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Ben!, posted 11-30-2005 9:24 AM Ben! has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 1:16 PM jar has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 78 of 145 (264458)
11-30-2005 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
11-30-2005 10:50 AM


Re: Filling in
Nevertheless, some scientists continue to assert that these experiences must happen at a time when there is still some brain function going on. Van Lommel is crystal clear in his response: “When the heart stops beating, blood flow stops within a second. Then, 6.5 seconds later, EEG activity starts to change due to the shortage of oxygen. After 15 seconds there is a straight, flat line and the electrical activity in the cerebral cortex has disappeared completely. We cannot measure the brain stem, but testing on animals has demonstrated that activity has ceased there as well. Moreover, you can prove that the brain stem is no longer functioning because it regulates our basic reflexes, such as the pupil response and swallowing reflex, which no longer respond.
Wonder why the author then is saying the opposite? Is he lying, part of the creationist/God-believer/ID-wedge conspiracy?
Anyone care to assess why the author claims NEDs occur when the brain is not functioning?
This message has been edited by randman, 11-30-2005 01:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 10:50 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by nwr, posted 11-30-2005 1:39 PM randman has not replied
 Message 81 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 1:49 PM randman has replied
 Message 82 by Wounded King, posted 11-30-2005 1:59 PM randman has replied
 Message 92 by crashfrog, posted 11-30-2005 3:24 PM randman has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 79 of 145 (264462)
11-30-2005 1:28 PM


more comments from the doctor
From these studies we know that in our prospective study of patients that have been clinically dead (VF on the ECG) no electric activity of the cortex of the brain (flat EEG) must have been possible, but also the abolition of brain stem activity like the loss of the corneareflex, fixed dilated pupils and the loss of the gag reflex is a clinical finding in those patients. However, patients with an NDE can report a clear consciousness, in which cognitive functioning, emotion, sense of identity, and memory from early childhood was possible, as well as perception from a position out and above their “dead” body. Because of the sometimes reported and verifiable out-of -body experiences, like the case of the dentures reported in our study, we know that the NDE must happen during the period of unconsciousness, and not in the first or last second of this period.
So we have to conclude that NDE in our study was experienced during a transient functional loss of all functions of the cortex and of the brainstem. It is important to mention that there is a well documented report of a patient with constant registration of the EEG during cerebral surgery for an gigantic cerebral aneurysm at the base of the brain, operated with a body temperature between 10 and 15 degrees, she was put on the heart-lung machine, with VF, with all blood drained from her head, with a flat line EEG, with clicking devices in both ears, with eyes taped shut, and this patient experienced an NDE with an out-of-body experience, and all details she perceived and heard could later be verified. (8)
....
The study of patients with NDE, however, clearly shows us that consciousness with memories, cognition, with emotion, self-identity, and perception out and above a life-less body is experienced during a period of a non-functioning brain (transient pancerebral anoxia).
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/vanLommel.htm

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 80 of 145 (264469)
11-30-2005 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by randman
11-30-2005 1:16 PM


Re: Filling in
Wonder why the author then is saying the opposite? Is he lying, part of the creationist/God-believer/ID-wedge conspiracy?
Anyone care to assess why the author claims NEDs occur when the brain is not functioning?
Which author are we talking about here? Is it the reporter who wrote the ODE article, or is it the physician who wrote the lancet article?
I don't see that claim in the lancet article.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 1:16 PM randman has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 145 (264472)
11-30-2005 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by randman
11-30-2005 1:16 PM


More misrepresentation and misdirection
Interesting but I have a few problems with your response. First, it's not in anyway related to the content of the message you are replying to. Second, none of those statements appear in The Lancet article. Third, even if they are a quote from Van Lommel, they are not supported by the reference to The Lancet article.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 1:16 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 2:04 PM jar has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 82 of 145 (264475)
11-30-2005 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by randman
11-30-2005 1:16 PM


Re: Filling in
The answer is obvious, he claims it because he accepts the anecdotal accounts of veridical observations by a patient, or more than one patient, during a supposed OBE/NDE. If we were to accept both the flat lining and the timing of the incident recounted in the paper, neither of which are all that well evidenced, then his localisation of the timing would be strong evidence for the experience occurring during that period. Absent any such evidence it is pretty unconvincing.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 1:16 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 2:10 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 83 of 145 (264480)
11-30-2005 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
11-30-2005 1:49 PM


Re: More misrepresentation and misdirection
I posted another article written by the doctor himself saying the same thing as the reporter said he said. He consistently claims NDEs occur during flat EEGs. He says that in the Lancet article, to the reporter, in articles he has written available on the web, etc,...
He's absolutely clear on what he maintains here.
If you want to try to argue the NDEs must occur prior to the EEG going flat as WK does, fine. The instances of verifiable veridigal perception are what the doctor counters with, and he is very clear that he feels that proves EEG occur when the brain has ceased functioning. He also persuasively discounts medical causes such as brain cells dying due to oxygen deprivation and other medical causes.
So what do you have to say to that?
You believe consciousness must only reside in the brain? Why?
This is getting a little off-topic, but not by much. Do you think people have a soul? If they do have a soul, a consciousness that's not solely a by-product of the brain, then wouldn't this data make sense? In fact, it only seems to make sense if out-of-body consciousness or soul exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 1:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 2:14 PM randman has replied
 Message 86 by Wounded King, posted 11-30-2005 2:17 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 84 of 145 (264486)
11-30-2005 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Wounded King
11-30-2005 1:59 PM


Re: Filling in
OK, just as long as we are clear that he is stating the NDEs occur when brain activity ceases. Your issue is you think the evidence is too weak to rule out this occurring in those 10 seconds the brain is diminishing in function, right?
It is interesting though that the reports of increased mental awareness and activity don't correspond well with a decrease in brain function, and moreover, the study rules out medical causes such as loss of brain cells and things like that.
Moreover, although you find it unconvincing, the veridical perception reported still remains unexplained by your take on the matter. In other words, we have to dismiss that evidence entirely in order to make it all fit within the 10 seconds. I think it's more reasonable to develop a hypothesis and theory which takes all of the evidence into account.
This message has been edited by randman, 11-30-2005 02:11 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Wounded King, posted 11-30-2005 1:59 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 145 (264487)
11-30-2005 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by randman
11-30-2005 2:04 PM


Re: More misrepresentation and misdirection
Again, nonthing in your post is related to my message. Simply more misdirection. I will not follow you down some other unrelated path.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 2:04 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 2:22 PM jar has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 86 of 145 (264491)
11-30-2005 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by randman
11-30-2005 2:04 PM


Re: More misrepresentation and misdirection
If you want to try to argue the NDEs must occur prior to the EEG going flat as WK does, fine.
Tht isn't actually what I was arguing in this instance, although it is a perfectly reasonable argument as is Ben's line of thought as to whether a flat EEG really represents zero electrical activity in the brain. I was actually arguing that the anecdotal account doesn't suggest that the patient was flat lining at the time of the supposed experience.
My extensive watching of ER suggests that they would have started CPR and ventilation before they intubated him, the explicit purpose of both of which is to maintain oxygenation and circulation in vital organs. So we may assume that there was some oxygenated blood getting to the patients brain prior to the nurse removing his dentures. So all we are left with is the comatose state of the patient, which doesn't neccessarily reflect the comatose states visible on an EEG and certainly doesn't imply a flat EEG would have been measured during the supposed OBE/NDE.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 2:04 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 2:29 PM Wounded King has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 87 of 145 (264494)
11-30-2005 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
11-30-2005 2:14 PM


what misdirection?
You claim Van Pommel is not saying the things I said he says, and I quoted him in 3 different areas where he explicitly states NDEs occur when there is no brain activity.
Agree with me now, or not, on what the doctor's claims are?
I ask about the soul because that's really another term for the same idea of consciousness not residing exclusively in the body. You say you are a Christian. So presumably you believe in the concept of a soul, right?
So why are you doubtful and surprised that people with NDEs would describe their experience pretty much like what you would expect if the concept of the soul were true, namely out-of-body at death, increases of awareness, mental abilities, empathy and well-being?
I think it's a fair question jar. Why are you so against the concept that there could be evidence for a soul if you believe the soul really exists, as you suggest when you say you are a Christian on other threads?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 2:14 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 3:16 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 88 of 145 (264499)
11-30-2005 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Wounded King
11-30-2005 2:17 PM


Re: More misrepresentation and misdirection
My extensive watching of ER suggests that they would have started CPR and ventilation before they intubated him, the explicit purpose of both of which is to maintain oxygenation and circulation in vital organs. So we may assume that there was some oxygenated blood getting to the patients brain prior to the nurse removing his dentures.
He addresses that specifically and generally in his references to medical causes and in the other article written by him I quoted from.
Moreover, one of the accounts he relies on deals with a woman who had the blood drained from here brain, operated on at very cold temperatures, with her eyes taped shut and yet she a very accurate description of details of the operation.
It is important to mention that there is a well documented report of a patient with constant registration of the EEG during cerebral surgery for an gigantic cerebral aneurysm at the base of the brain, operated with a body temperature between 10 and 15 degrees, she was put on the heart-lung machine, with VF, with all blood drained from her head, with a flat line EEG, with clicking devices in both ears, with eyes taped shut, and this patient experienced an NDE with an out-of-body experience, and all details she perceived and heard could later be verified. (8
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/vanLommel.htm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Wounded King, posted 11-30-2005 2:17 PM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 145 (264513)
11-30-2005 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by randman
11-30-2005 2:22 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Again, the existance or non-existance of a soul has nothing to do with this thread. Stop trying to change the subject.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 2:22 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 3:20 PM jar has replied
 Message 96 by nwr, posted 11-30-2005 3:44 PM jar has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 90 of 145 (264515)
11-30-2005 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by randman
11-30-2005 1:31 AM


Re: another bit of evidence cited by the doctor
He points out that American computer science expert Simon Berkovich and Dutch brain researcher Herms Romijn, working independently of one another, came to the same conclusion: that it is impossible for the brain to store everything you think and experience in your life.
But nobody's brain does store everything they think and experience. I mean, how much stuff have you forgotten? How much do you simply not pay any attention to in the first place? How often are you thinking about the way your clothes feel? Or how much your hair weighs?
Haven't you ever gotten in the car to drive a significant distance, and when you get there, you remember absolutely nothing about the trip? Nobody remembers a continuous video of their lives, so these calculations are meaningless.
This would require a processing speed of 1024 bits per second.
Is that 1024 bits, or 10^24 bits? The first doesn't really seem like a stretch for the brain.
Anyway, the idea that the brain "isn't enough" is just nonsense. If the brain doesn't do the thinking and remembering, then why do we have brains? And why does damage to the brain change, literally, the way you think? How does psychopharmacology work if the brain isn't actually where the thinking and remembering happens?
These cases include NDE vision in persons blind from birth.
Which is a very good proof that these "visions" are simply artifacts produced by the brain.
Nevertheless, she correctly described instruments used by the doctors and conversations held between the doctors and nurses conducting the operation.
And she's never watched ER? Or the Discovery Channel? I could probably describe the conversations held between the doctors and nurses at that time, with probably the same degree of accuracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 1:31 AM randman has not replied

  
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