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Author Topic:   Near-death experiences and consciousness
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 5 of 145 (264094)
11-29-2005 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
11-29-2005 1:37 AM


Imo, the study published in the Lancet scientifically confirms that consciousness exists outside of the brain and after death.
Well, no, it doesn't. The study didn't even measure brain activity, so they had no way of knowing whether or not brain activity had ceased.
I take it you haven't actually read the study. Van Lommel's remarks are supported by absolutely nothing actually contained in his study, and your entire post is an attempt to equivocate his personal, unsupported speculations with legitimate scientific research and discovery.
The fact people can remember what happened when their brain is inactive and they are dead is proof positive of this.
The fact is that this is not a fact; the entire study has one anecdote about a comatose - not brain-dead - man remembering where his dentures were. In other studies of the same thing, respondents were consistently inaccurate about what actually went on during their resuccitation; the most likely experience is that they're simply conflating things they've watched on TV medical shows with what actually happened. Which is not surprising; most medical TV programs are either written and created by doctors, or have very good medical consultants.
Once again, you've completely misunderstood what peer-review research is. You've completely ignored the fact that none of Van Lommel's statements appear to be supported by his research. He's either a poor scientist indeed, or drastically misquoted for this article. And your attempt to bait-and-switch - trying to offer a media interview as "scientific proof" is just further evidence of your disgusting, insulting mendacity.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 7 of 145 (264096)
11-29-2005 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Ben!
11-29-2005 10:46 AM


Re: A link to the actual study
I'm interested to know how "brain inactivity" is operationally defined--that's a critical part in knowing if the study is being interpreted validly.
In the study, they aren't defining it - they're using cardiac arrest as a clinical definition of death.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 15 of 145 (264117)
11-29-2005 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by randman
11-29-2005 12:28 PM


Re: brain activity
Can anyone show where it is likely that electrical activity continues in the cerebral cortex after 15 seconds, or is it more a statement of belief that somehow the brain must still be functioning?
The statement of belief is the unsupported assumption that the experience itself happens during the time of loss of brain function. Also, the study doesn't specifically indicate that the patients were uniformly in an arrested state long enough for brain function to cease, as near as I can tell. Van Lommel doesn't even come right out and say that every patient had no brain activity while they experienced their NDE, probably because he knows it's not possible to verify exactly when the experience took place.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 53 of 145 (264313)
11-29-2005 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by randman
11-29-2005 7:22 PM


Re: Under Discussion for one.
Imo, this simply shows the incredible inconsistency and biasness of science overall towards certain belief systems.
Really? I think it pretty well shows that you don't know what the word "anecdotal" means. (Also, there's no such word as "biasness".)

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 90 of 145 (264515)
11-30-2005 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by randman
11-30-2005 1:31 AM


Re: another bit of evidence cited by the doctor
He points out that American computer science expert Simon Berkovich and Dutch brain researcher Herms Romijn, working independently of one another, came to the same conclusion: that it is impossible for the brain to store everything you think and experience in your life.
But nobody's brain does store everything they think and experience. I mean, how much stuff have you forgotten? How much do you simply not pay any attention to in the first place? How often are you thinking about the way your clothes feel? Or how much your hair weighs?
Haven't you ever gotten in the car to drive a significant distance, and when you get there, you remember absolutely nothing about the trip? Nobody remembers a continuous video of their lives, so these calculations are meaningless.
This would require a processing speed of 1024 bits per second.
Is that 1024 bits, or 10^24 bits? The first doesn't really seem like a stretch for the brain.
Anyway, the idea that the brain "isn't enough" is just nonsense. If the brain doesn't do the thinking and remembering, then why do we have brains? And why does damage to the brain change, literally, the way you think? How does psychopharmacology work if the brain isn't actually where the thinking and remembering happens?
These cases include NDE vision in persons blind from birth.
Which is a very good proof that these "visions" are simply artifacts produced by the brain.
Nevertheless, she correctly described instruments used by the doctors and conversations held between the doctors and nurses conducting the operation.
And she's never watched ER? Or the Discovery Channel? I could probably describe the conversations held between the doctors and nurses at that time, with probably the same degree of accuracy.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 92 of 145 (264517)
11-30-2005 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by randman
11-30-2005 1:16 PM


Re: Filling in
Anyone care to assess why the author claims NEDs occur when the brain is not functioning?
Sure. He's driven by an agenda to establish a pseudo-scientific basis for the existence of the soul. It's clear from his paper, and clear from his comments. Otherwise he wouldn't be making these statements in the absence of any evidence.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 94 of 145 (264520)
11-30-2005 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by randman
11-30-2005 3:20 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Do you believe a person's consciousness or a form of consciousness can exist without the brain then?
If it can exist without the brain; remain in the physical world and make observations, hear sounds, see things, etc - why do we need brains at all? Why not have an empty skull? Maybe with a little hatch on the back to store things?
What do our brains do if not thinking and remembering? And if that's not what they do, then why do drugs work?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 98 of 145 (264531)
11-30-2005 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by cavediver
11-30-2005 3:46 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Sorry, friend. For future reference: see the big green frog over there on the left? That's your warning. Try not to ingest beverages until after you've finished reading.

This message is a reply to:
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