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Author Topic:   Near-death experiences and consciousness
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 145 (264122)
11-29-2005 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by randman
11-29-2005 12:28 PM


Re: brain activity
While that line is quoted in the Ode magazine article, it does not appear in the Lancet publish one. Is that from some interview and is it simply an personal assertion or believe?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 12:28 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 3:21 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 145 (264187)
11-29-2005 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by randman
11-29-2005 3:21 PM


Re: brain activity
Well, I did read it again. And still could not find it in the Lancet Article, although, as I said, it is quoted in the pop-sci interview.
Just to be sure, I searched on the single word 'disappeaared' which is part of your quote. That word itself does not appear in the Lancet article.
Now it's very possible that I overlooked something so if you can point out the page, column and paragraph it would help.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 3:21 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 4:50 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 145 (264239)
11-29-2005 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by randman
11-29-2005 4:50 PM


Re: Under Discussion for one.
Actually, it looks like you are once again playing with the facts. The initial quote does not appear in the Lancet article, at least, having completely read and reread it several times, I have not been able to find it. Your quote does not appear to be from the Lancet article but rather solely from the Ode magazine article.
It's unequivocal in it's claims.
Well, that's not what the Lancet article says. The closet thing I can find in the Lancet article is not from their study but a reference to yet another study.
Sabom22 mentions a young American
woman who had complications during brain surgery for
a cerebral aneurysm. The EEG of her cortex and
brainstem had become totally flat. After the operation,
which was eventually successful, this patient proved to
have had a very deep NDE, including an out-of-body
experience, with subsequently verified observations
during the period of the flat EEG.
Far from being unequivocal in it's claims, the actual conclusion is
With lack of evidence for any other theories for NDE,
the thus far assumed, but never proven, concept that
consciousness and memories are localised in the brain
should be discussed.
Doesn't sound like they reached any conclusion.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 4:50 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 6:01 PM jar has replied
 Message 29 by Ben!, posted 11-29-2005 6:05 PM jar has not replied
 Message 32 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 6:12 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 145 (264247)
11-29-2005 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by randman
11-29-2005 6:01 PM


Re: Under Discussion for one.
Read it and actually included the quotes in context. If I have missed it in the article, please post it in context so we can all learn.
Others can read the Lancet article for themselves and they can form their own opinions about who is picking and choosing quotes out of context.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 6:01 PM randman has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 145 (264255)
11-29-2005 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by randman
11-29-2005 6:12 PM


Re: Under Discussion for one.
He asks questions. It goes on for several paragraphs. There is NO conclusion drawn.
Once again, here are the paragraphs that you point to so others can see them in context.
With lack of evidence for any other theories for NDE,
the thus far assumed, but never proven, concept that
consciousness and memories are localised in the brain
should be discussed. How could a clear consciousness
outside one’s body be experienced at the moment that
the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical
death with flat EEG?22 Also, in cardiac arrest the EEG
usually becomes flat in most cases within about 10 s
from onset of syncope.29,30 Furthermore, blind people
have described veridical perception during out-of-body
experiences at the time of this experience.31 NDE pushes
at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human
consciousness and the mind-brain relation.
Another theory holds that NDE might be a changing
state of consciousness (transcendence), in which
identity, cognition, and emotion function independently
from the unconscious body, but retain the possibility of
non-sensory perception.
Research should be concentrated on the effort to
explain scientifically the occurrence and content of
NDE. Research should be focused on certain specific
elements of NDE, such as out-of-body experiences
and other verifiable aspects. Finally, the theory
and background of transcendence should be included as
a part of an explanatory framework for these
experiences.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 6:12 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 6:34 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 145 (264290)
11-29-2005 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by randman
11-29-2005 7:22 PM


Re: Under Discussion for one.
ROTFLMAO
Btw, as an aside, it's interesting that one piece of a skull can warrant articles, reconstructions, and reviews of evolutionary paths and is treated as significant non-anecdotal evidence, but at the same time, an account of a NDE where someone remembers specifics while their brain was not functioning is anecdotal.
Yeah. Next time you can hold an NDE in your hands and get it independantly confirmed let us know.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 7:22 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 7:32 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 145 (264295)
11-29-2005 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by randman
11-29-2005 7:32 PM


Re: Under Discussion for one.
Yup.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 7:32 PM randman has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 77 of 145 (264423)
11-30-2005 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Ben!
11-30-2005 9:24 AM


Re: Filling in
Without more compelling information about memory reconstruction or evidence from NDE studies, I think it's dismissive to suggest that no conscious processes are happening during a flat EEG. I think the best we can do is to say, "yes, we don't know. Not enough data to find an adequate explanation."
I think that's pretty much what everyone here except randman have been saying. It's pretty much what the author said the The Lancet article.
There are really only a few conclusions that can be gathered from the article. One is that NDE's are not the norm. A second conclusion is that they are not common.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Ben!, posted 11-30-2005 9:24 AM Ben! has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 1:16 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 145 (264472)
11-30-2005 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by randman
11-30-2005 1:16 PM


More misrepresentation and misdirection
Interesting but I have a few problems with your response. First, it's not in anyway related to the content of the message you are replying to. Second, none of those statements appear in The Lancet article. Third, even if they are a quote from Van Lommel, they are not supported by the reference to The Lancet article.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 1:16 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 2:04 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 145 (264487)
11-30-2005 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by randman
11-30-2005 2:04 PM


Re: More misrepresentation and misdirection
Again, nonthing in your post is related to my message. Simply more misdirection. I will not follow you down some other unrelated path.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 2:04 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 2:22 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 145 (264513)
11-30-2005 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by randman
11-30-2005 2:22 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Again, the existance or non-existance of a soul has nothing to do with this thread. Stop trying to change the subject.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 2:22 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 3:20 PM jar has replied
 Message 96 by nwr, posted 11-30-2005 3:44 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 145 (264521)
11-30-2005 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by randman
11-30-2005 3:20 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Again, that has nothing to do with this thread.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 3:20 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 4:16 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 100 of 145 (264543)
11-30-2005 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by randman
11-30-2005 4:16 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Nonsense.
Yet more misdirection.
This is not about what I might believe but rather what the evidence as laid out in the Lancet article shows. And so far you seem to dance all around that instead of responding to the issue.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 4:16 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 10:19 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 104 of 145 (264608)
11-30-2005 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by randman
11-30-2005 10:19 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Still trying to change the subject are you?
Nope, back to the topic. The Lancet article does not support your assertions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 10:19 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 10:47 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 145 (264613)
11-30-2005 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by randman
11-30-2005 10:47 PM


Re: what misdirection?
You claimed the Lancet article did not make the claim of consciousness occuring without brain activity, but it does make that claim.
Once again you are misquoting what I have said.
Look at Message 33 which quotes the parts from the Lancet article you earlier pointed to. The article says it needs to be investigated further. It does not say it's common but that more study is needed to show what happens when there is no brain activity.
And the rest of your post is yet another attempt to change the subject.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 10:47 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 11:21 PM jar has replied

  
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