Church spreading aids

This is crazy, why would they go over there to do such a thing. I would think if they were to go there it would be to lend a hand help people, show these people the love of Jesus Christ. Not to tell them what to do. I am rarely in agreement with the Catholic church, and i DEFINATELY DO NOT agree to this aproach.Interesting side not on this one, but did you know that the drug companies last year grossed an insane amount of money. Billions of dollars, when aproached about making drugs and supplies available at a much lower cost to developin nations and to the people in Africa suffering from aids, they simply stated "our share holders would never go for that". How bout them apples eh. All hail the almighty $ ruler on high. Greed. plain and simple, Hey doesn't the catholic church have a huge bank account why don't they supply Africa with medical supplies and drugs. It would seem a better use of $ to me than going over there trying to tell them what to do.------------------
saved by grace

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Originally posted by gene90:
Supplies don't get through Africa well becaue of political instability and lack of infrastructure. Proving them with the insanely expensive cocktails necessary to fight HIV would be impossible. And partial doses are worse than no doses, it would encourage drug resistance. Only a one-time-use vaccine will save Africa

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I agree with you most of the time Gene and i know that Africa is a crazy place (for lack of better words). I was implying that the drug companies are making this insane amount of money due to the fact that they sell these drugs at a ridiculously high price. I know that alot of research money goes into coming up with these "cocktails" but obviously that cost is already covered in the sale of these drugs. Now after making a profit that large can't they bring down the rates to help those who really need it?Also I have noticed that sexual contact has been considered the main cause of spreading the Aids virus in Africa. Now unless I am mistaken (and it's happened before )Africa also has a huge drug problem. As a former user of all kinds of drugs I am aware of the unsanitary behaviours of users. Not just from intravenous drug use but the whole lifestyle is dirty, all kinds of things are shared, the places addicts spend their time are filthy. This kind of lifestyle leads to hopelessness anyway and these people I imagine don't to much care if they contract or spread the disease. This is a very hard thing to fight against, this despair and hoplesness.So I think there is much more to this problem than not using condoms, or keeping their pants or whatever. Oh and i have yet to see this article that proclaims this is why the Catholic church is going over there. If i missed it in this thread somewhere I'm sorry i looked for it and didn't see it. To my understanding it seems a very deeply rooted social problem, not just an issue of sexual morality. Africa has never been an easy place to live.------------------
saved by grace

Don't mean to be rude there but how do you know that this is what they are doing in Africa? You have yet to provide even a basis for this argument other than slander of the Catholic church. If you aren't going over there to help out then what say should you have? I hope I'm misunderstanding this because it sure looks like there's no real interest in the people of Africa, moreover it would seem just a chance to slander religion.------------------
saved by grace

I stand corrected, and sad. Unfortunately so often we as Christians stick to these doctrines much to stringently. I don't care if you are Catholic or Protestant the important doctrine is that of the saving power and love of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the important one, if we choose to follow these other doctrines (and alot of them are shaky and out of context) then fine, I just wish we wouldn't make these unimportant things a stumbling block to unbelievers. ------------------
saved by grace[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-05-2002][This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-05-2002]

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Originally posted by Metatron:
I hope you are not referring to the easily averted deaths of millions as an unimportant thing. If you want examples of stumbling blocks to unbelievers start with the crusades/whitch trails/eradication of druidism/persecution of anyone not in your church and dont forget institutionalised child molestation.

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Oh I think you have misunderstood me. All these things come from sticking too strictly to doctrine that's not important or even blatantly false. I was not agreeing with any of these aproaches. I was saddened by the fact that the Catholics see their doctrine as more important than the love of Jesus Christ. Hope this clears up my stance for you.------------------
saved by grace

Whether you like it or not shchrafie the "keep your pants on" morality is the only guaranted solution. Unfortunately that's an impossible thing to instill in people. If people would respect the God's laws he has put in place concerning sexuality, we wouldn't even have this epedemic.
I know I'm going to take fire for this but God created sex as a gift to married couples, outside of this intended relationship your on your own. No one likes morals, any more than they like taxes, but they are there for a reason.------------------
saved by grace

No John again you are mistaken on your OT. Did you every notice how well polygamy worked out for those men who tried it. Hell on earth, can't imagine anyone wanting more than one wife anyway. I don't believe God ever condoned these things. The people in the OT disobeyed God just as we do now. Doesn't make what they did right just because it's recorded in the bible. I think alot was recorded just to show us what doesn't work.------------------
saved by grace

No it's not really clear on it. It doesn't say go ahead and mary 18 wives. Don't misrepresent things here. Just because something happens in the bible doesn't mean it's something God condones. Though you would very much like to draw this conclusion for your continued blasphemy.------------------
saved by grace

I can see my post has been misunderstood. Probably due to my wording yet again. I didn't mean to imply that immorality was the original cause of the Aids epedemic. I simply meant to state the very obvious that no matter what, the only sure fire solution to the problem is "keep your pants on". Of course I come by this view because of religious convictions, I believe these morals were set in place to help protect us from such things.The HIV virus would exist wether or not people chose to live by such morality. However I do not think in a moral society (something I've never known to occur from my knowledge of history) we would have such a widespread problem with it. As far as I know the 2 main ways the virus is spread is through sexual contact and intraveinous drug use. These are both moral issues. I was attempting to point out that these things act like a wind on a forest fire. Not that immorality started the fire, more that it fueled it's growth.Sorry I wasn't very clear on that.------------------
saved by grace

Well I wasn't planning on getting into polygamy. I don't know anything about it, I never needed to know whether it was right or wrong. Now as I think about it, I don't recall God ever saying polygamy was wrong. Although he does show it to be undesirable. Any place in the old testament that a man married more than one woman, it was a guarantee that things did not go well. I don't really know of any place where it was encouraged by God. Of course I'm probably wrong.You just stated that it was clearly acceptable to God. This I don't see anywhere. I don't see any place where he says it's right or wrong. So it's a subject I'm not sure about. I never needed to know what the bible taught about polygamy, I was never interested in having more than one wife. So I guess I shouldn't have opened my mouth about polygamy.My apologies. However I still hold to the fact that a change in morality is the only sure solution to the Aids epedemic. Though a near impossible solution to apply.------------------
saved by grace

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Although he does show it to be undesirable. Any place in the old testament that a man married more than one woman, it was a guarantee that things did not go well.
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hmmm... you'd have a hard time making a case, since pretty much every major male player in the OT had multiple wives.

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Yes I know there were quite a few (David and Solomon alone account for alot of wives ) in the old testament with multiple wives. What I was getting at was it didn't work well. The wives squabbled, the children of different mothers fought and bickered. It did not generally provide a positive outcome. The account of Jacob's life alone should discourage anyone from polygamy.

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However I still hold to the fact that a change in morality is the only sure solution to the Aids epedemic. Though a near impossible solution to apply.
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An impossible solution is a death sentence for maybe 80 million people, if I recall the death toll estimates correctly. The thread was started because the RCC is pushing the impossible solution instead of a practical one.

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And at the beggining of this thread I pointed out that I thought the churches job was just to go and help the people, physically. To tend to their needs to feed and care for them as best they can. In short to bring the love of Jesus Christ. Not to preach doctrine at them.However this said, the root of the epedemic (not the virus) is a moral issue. It's only sure solution, is a moral one. This cannot be forced on people it is something they must choose. So it's not the job of the church to preach but to love. Though the people need to make a decision to change things.------------------
saved by grace

Oops I thought I was more clear on that post. I don't see how you say it worked well. It worked it guaranteed many sons. However the husband was always dealing with this bickering amongst his family. It caused division in the family unit. Not saying this is the only factor that can do this but never the less it did.I see where you say it worked in many cultures. I guess if the main goal was to have many children (sons if possible) then it was a sure fire system. However as a family unit it generally did not function well. Though we here in North America can't make a family unit function with just two parents.

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How many diseases are moral problems, funk?

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You've got a disease that intersects with your particular version of morality and so you ditch the fact that the disease is caused by a virus just like any other viral infection. The solution is behavioral, not moral. The rates among gay men in the US are lower than they were ten years ago. Why? Gay men are being more careful, though not careful enough. Is anal sex between men who use condoms not a moral problem? While it is a moral problem if the condom isn't used?

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Again I will state that I don't accredit immorality to the existance of the virus. I accredit immorality to the rapid spread of the disease. That said the only solution is a behaviour change. If you don't like the word moral. I hope my statement of the churches role doesn't get lost. I tried to be careful not to say immorality is the cause of the HIV virus. More that the immoral lifestyle is to blame for it's spread. I have had a burden laid on my heart for the people of Africa since this thread began, and I pray for them.Yet again I do not condone the doctrine being brought to these people. The important doctrine is the love of the Lord Jesus and his saving power.------------------
saved by grace

Sorry Joz I never thought of that thanx for pointing it out. I was just thinking along biblical lines, where to my knowledge the reverse was not mentioned. (wife with multiple husbands)Like I said earlier I have never spent much time pondering this as I never wanted more than one wife. I should not even be involved in a discussion about this because I don't know what I'm talking about. Though some would say I never know what I'm talking about.------------------
saved by grace[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-13-2002]

Looking at the title of this thread I was really hit by something. You would think the church was running around with needles containing the virus poking every African they could possibly get.The church is not spreading the virus, the people are spreading the virus by the behaviour and lifestyle they choose.If you don't like it go do something about it. What are you doing for those suffering in Africa? How many "toys" do you have? Take the plank out of your own eye before you go chasing after someone elses speck.I see this kind of thing all the time, the church is doing this God does that. Really? Think about who is doing what.
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Saved by an incredible Grace.[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-20-2002]

You guys do peace keeping eh? I thought only Canada sent peace keepers. I love this idea of helping out, take your guns into their country and point them at peoples heads. Who's killing who? If a situation is tense the best idea is to bring in more weapons, and trained killers?I pray for the world. *bracing for mockery* that's my contribution, I'm convinced it's much more effective than holding a gun to someones head.Oh btw, don't give me this "war is religions fault" crap, what a weak cop out, economics has more to do with this than anything.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.