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Author Topic:   Near-death experiences and consciousness
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 145 (264613)
11-30-2005 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by randman
11-30-2005 10:47 PM


Re: what misdirection?
You claimed the Lancet article did not make the claim of consciousness occuring without brain activity, but it does make that claim.
Once again you are misquoting what I have said.
Look at Message 33 which quotes the parts from the Lancet article you earlier pointed to. The article says it needs to be investigated further. It does not say it's common but that more study is needed to show what happens when there is no brain activity.
And the rest of your post is yet another attempt to change the subject.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 10:47 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 11:21 PM jar has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 107 of 145 (264616)
11-30-2005 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
11-30-2005 10:58 PM


Re: what misdirection?
It explicitly says more study is needed BECAUSE NDEs occur when the BRAIN IS NOT FUNCTIONING.
Van Pimmel himself repeats that assertation in the Lancet article, the Ode piece, and the on-line articles I linked to. I provided 3 cooroborations of his claims, and yet you deny he is even making the claim.
What gives jar?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 10:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 11:22 PM randman has not replied
 Message 109 by arachnophilia, posted 12-01-2005 12:04 AM randman has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 108 of 145 (264617)
11-30-2005 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by randman
11-30-2005 11:21 PM


Re: what misdirection?
we been over them son. Read it again.
also, please quit trying to change what I've said.
edited to fix spelling
This message has been edited by jar, 11-30-2005 10:23 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 11:21 PM randman has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 109 of 145 (264631)
12-01-2005 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by randman
11-30-2005 11:21 PM


Re: what misdirection?
It explicitly says more study is needed BECAUSE NDEs occur when the BRAIN IS NOT FUNCTIONING.
you forgot a word: "presumed." it should read:
"NDEs occur when the BRAIN IS PRESUMED TO BE NOT FUNCTIONING."
that's what the bit at the beginning of the thread about eeg's was all about. they're assuming flat-eeg's, not measuring flat-eeg's. they're collecting data about cardiac arrest patients, and that data does not include eeg data.
it includes one anecdotal reference to an instance of such a thing happening. but the article itself does not establish that nde's are percieved to be happening when the brain is not function at all. in fact, a flat eeg doesn't establish the non-functionality of the brain; it just esatblishes that the activity is belong the recordable threshold.
and even if the perception is that these events happen whole there is no brain activity period, that doesn't mean they neccessarily did -- false memories, hallucinations, blackouts, and dreams tend not to occur in real time, so it's really impossible to sync up the brain's subconcious perception of time to a real clock.
so it's on pretty shaky ground to start with.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 11:21 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by randman, posted 12-01-2005 2:52 AM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 111 by nator, posted 12-01-2005 11:12 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 110 of 145 (264649)
12-01-2005 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by arachnophilia
12-01-2005 12:04 AM


Re: what misdirection?
You can argue their claim EEGs are flat is based on insufficient evidence. Fine. I disagree, but at least we're debating within the realm of reality in terms of what the author is claiming.
What one cannot reasonably argue is what jar claims, which is that the article never even makes those claims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by arachnophilia, posted 12-01-2005 12:04 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Wounded King, posted 12-01-2005 12:23 PM randman has not replied
 Message 119 by arachnophilia, posted 12-01-2005 9:22 PM randman has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 111 of 145 (264724)
12-01-2005 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by arachnophilia
12-01-2005 12:04 AM


Re: what misdirection?
quote:
and even if the perception is that these events happen whole there is no brain activity period, that doesn't mean they neccessarily did -- false memories, hallucinations, blackouts, and dreams tend not to occur in real time, so it's really impossible to sync up the brain's subconcious perception of time to a real clock.
It would be possible if they were getting an FMRI brain scan at the time.
But that's impractical, as if they died in the scanner, they probably wouldn't be coming back to report any NDE's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by arachnophilia, posted 12-01-2005 12:04 AM arachnophilia has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Wounded King, posted 12-01-2005 11:56 AM nator has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 112 of 145 (264739)
12-01-2005 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by nator
12-01-2005 11:12 AM


Re: what misdirection?
I'm not sure that fMRI would work, after all there isn't supposed to be any blood flowing through the patients brains.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by nator, posted 12-01-2005 11:12 AM nator has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 113 of 145 (264742)
12-01-2005 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by randman
12-01-2005 2:52 AM


Re: what misdirection?
You can argue their claim EEGs are flat is based on insufficient evidence. Fine. I disagree
Perhaps rather than simply disagreeing you should come up with some evidence to support your position.
Some evidence that it EEGs are consistently flat while CPR and ventilation are administered might be nice or something suggesting that the account from the Sabom book actually recounts veridical observations during the period when the EEG was flat.
TTFN,
WK

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 Message 110 by randman, posted 12-01-2005 2:52 AM randman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 12-01-2005 12:39 PM Wounded King has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 114 of 145 (264745)
12-01-2005 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Wounded King
12-01-2005 12:23 PM


Re: what misdirection?
The reference to the Sabom book was only anecdotal and did not say that the NDE happened when the EEG was flatlined.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Wounded King, posted 12-01-2005 12:23 PM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Wounded King, posted 12-01-2005 3:06 PM jar has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 115 of 145 (264774)
12-01-2005 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by jar
12-01-2005 12:39 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Are you sure? Because when he writes...
Van Lommel, et al., 2001 writes:
Sabom22 mentions a young American
woman who had complications during brain surgery for
a cerebral aneurysm. The EEG of her cortex and
brainstem had become totally flat. After the operation,
which was eventually successful, this patient proved to
have had a very deep NDE, including an out-of-body
experience, with subsequently verified observations
during the period of the flat EEG.
it sounds an awful lot like it to me.
This account is in fact flatly contradicted by the extracts of the book I referenced earlier.
TTFN,
WK
This message has been edited by Wounded King, 01-Dec-2005 08:15 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 12-01-2005 12:39 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 12-01-2005 6:02 PM Wounded King has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 116 of 145 (264855)
12-01-2005 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Wounded King
12-01-2005 3:06 PM


Re: what misdirection?
I said it was anecdotal. To me it sounds more like a fairytale, twice told. I would certainly not call any such anedotal remark evidence or if included in evidence, of such low quality as to justify ignoring it. No details, no way to corroborate the story from the Lancet article, simply anecdote.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Wounded King, posted 12-01-2005 3:06 PM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Wounded King, posted 12-01-2005 6:37 PM jar has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 117 of 145 (264866)
12-01-2005 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by jar
12-01-2005 6:02 PM


Re: what misdirection?
I'm not sure why you are focusing on the anecdotal nature of the evidence in your reply to me. I've never contended it was anything other than anecdotal. It is not impossible that there could be some properly documented record of the patients account of her NDE consistent with some independently made account of the procedure. The standstill procedure is still infrequent enough to be quite a big thing, and would presumably have been even more so in 1991. But any such evidence is clearly not readily available for consultation.
I wasn't arguing for the quality of the evidence, I was simply questioning your claim that van Lommel's paper...
did not say that the NDE happened when the EEG was flatlined.
... It certainly didn't give any evidence to support the claim but it did say exactly that and provided a reference. I have linked to extracts from the book referenced and they pretty much flatly contradict von Lommels claim.
There is as much scope to corroborate this claim as there is any other referenced claim in a paper, you look up the reference and judge for yourself whether it agrees with what the citing author says, in this case it clearly doesn't, assuming that is that the extracts I found online are reliable.
TTFN,
WK

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 Message 116 by jar, posted 12-01-2005 6:02 PM jar has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 118 of 145 (264887)
12-01-2005 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
11-29-2005 1:37 AM


a standard.
Imo, the study published in the Lancet scientifically confirmsthat consciousness exists outside of the brain and after death. The fact people can remember what happened when their brain is inactive and they are dead is proof positive of this.
Just keeping a record of your standards of scientific credibility and skepticism.

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 119 of 145 (264906)
12-01-2005 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by randman
12-01-2005 2:52 AM


Re: what misdirection?
You can argue their claim EEGs are flat is based on insufficient evidence. Fine. I disagree, but at least we're debating within the realm of reality in terms of what the author is claiming.
i'm arguing that they didn't measure it, just collected statistics about nde's during cardiac failure. i'm also arguing that interpretation is logically invalid, and the reading of that interpretation equally bad.
but i'll tell you what; i'm gonna sit this one out until someone finds the sabom reference, and posts. i wanna see what it actually says first, before i say anything about it.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by randman, posted 12-01-2005 2:52 AM randman has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 120 of 145 (264911)
12-01-2005 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Ben!
11-30-2005 9:24 AM


Re: Filling in
Right. As far as I know, usually this happens on a much smaller scale than what's being reported here
well, not neccessarily. there are whole accounts from my childhood that i "remember" only because a picture was taken. the actual memory of the event has long since vanished, but i can remember parts that have been reconstructed from the image.
That's a pretty big hole, a lot of information.
i don't really think it's a problem -- nde's don't tend to take very long. and a lot of the information is provided by the effects of a brain dying of oxygen deprivation (see all the references before)
And seems like there's a fair number of claims that suggest there's sensory data for the time of the NDE being incorporated.
i wanna see what that sabom paper says. i'm inclined to not believe that (as test i heard about yeilded nothing).
I think it's dismissive to suggest that no conscious processes are happening during a flat EEG.
no no, what i was saying above is that a flat eeg may not actually mean ZERO brain activity. it just means it's not strong enough to get a reading.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Ben!, posted 11-30-2005 9:24 AM Ben! has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2005 10:00 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 123 by Wounded King, posted 12-02-2005 2:23 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
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