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Author | Topic: Near-death experiences and consciousness | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You claimed the Lancet article did not make the claim of consciousness occuring without brain activity, but it does make that claim. Once again you are misquoting what I have said. Look at Message 33 which quotes the parts from the Lancet article you earlier pointed to. The article says it needs to be investigated further. It does not say it's common but that more study is needed to show what happens when there is no brain activity. And the rest of your post is yet another attempt to change the subject. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4919 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
It explicitly says more study is needed BECAUSE NDEs occur when the BRAIN IS NOT FUNCTIONING.
Van Pimmel himself repeats that assertation in the Lancet article, the Ode piece, and the on-line articles I linked to. I provided 3 cooroborations of his claims, and yet you deny he is even making the claim. What gives jar?
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
we been over them son. Read it again.
also, please quit trying to change what I've said. edited to fix spelling This message has been edited by jar, 11-30-2005 10:23 PM Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
It explicitly says more study is needed BECAUSE NDEs occur when the BRAIN IS NOT FUNCTIONING. you forgot a word: "presumed." it should read: "NDEs occur when the BRAIN IS PRESUMED TO BE NOT FUNCTIONING." that's what the bit at the beginning of the thread about eeg's was all about. they're assuming flat-eeg's, not measuring flat-eeg's. they're collecting data about cardiac arrest patients, and that data does not include eeg data. it includes one anecdotal reference to an instance of such a thing happening. but the article itself does not establish that nde's are percieved to be happening when the brain is not function at all. in fact, a flat eeg doesn't establish the non-functionality of the brain; it just esatblishes that the activity is belong the recordable threshold. and even if the perception is that these events happen whole there is no brain activity period, that doesn't mean they neccessarily did -- false memories, hallucinations, blackouts, and dreams tend not to occur in real time, so it's really impossible to sync up the brain's subconcious perception of time to a real clock. so it's on pretty shaky ground to start with.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4919 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
You can argue their claim EEGs are flat is based on insufficient evidence. Fine. I disagree, but at least we're debating within the realm of reality in terms of what the author is claiming.
What one cannot reasonably argue is what jar claims, which is that the article never even makes those claims.
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nator Member (Idle past 2190 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: It would be possible if they were getting an FMRI brain scan at the time. But that's impractical, as if they died in the scanner, they probably wouldn't be coming back to report any NDE's.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
I'm not sure that fMRI would work, after all there isn't supposed to be any blood flowing through the patients brains.
TTFN, WK
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
You can argue their claim EEGs are flat is based on insufficient evidence. Fine. I disagree Perhaps rather than simply disagreeing you should come up with some evidence to support your position. Some evidence that it EEGs are consistently flat while CPR and ventilation are administered might be nice or something suggesting that the account from the Sabom book actually recounts veridical observations during the period when the EEG was flat. TTFN, WK
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The reference to the Sabom book was only anecdotal and did not say that the NDE happened when the EEG was flatlined.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
Are you sure? Because when he writes...
Van Lommel, et al., 2001 writes: Sabom22 mentions a young Americanwoman who had complications during brain surgery for a cerebral aneurysm. The EEG of her cortex and brainstem had become totally flat. After the operation, which was eventually successful, this patient proved to have had a very deep NDE, including an out-of-body experience, with subsequently verified observations during the period of the flat EEG. it sounds an awful lot like it to me. This account is in fact flatly contradicted by the extracts of the book I referenced earlier. TTFN, WK This message has been edited by Wounded King, 01-Dec-2005 08:15 PM
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I said it was anecdotal. To me it sounds more like a fairytale, twice told. I would certainly not call any such anedotal remark evidence or if included in evidence, of such low quality as to justify ignoring it. No details, no way to corroborate the story from the Lancet article, simply anecdote.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
I'm not sure why you are focusing on the anecdotal nature of the evidence in your reply to me. I've never contended it was anything other than anecdotal. It is not impossible that there could be some properly documented record of the patients account of her NDE consistent with some independently made account of the procedure. The standstill procedure is still infrequent enough to be quite a big thing, and would presumably have been even more so in 1991. But any such evidence is clearly not readily available for consultation.
I wasn't arguing for the quality of the evidence, I was simply questioning your claim that van Lommel's paper...
did not say that the NDE happened when the EEG was flatlined. ... It certainly didn't give any evidence to support the claim but it did say exactly that and provided a reference. I have linked to extracts from the book referenced and they pretty much flatly contradict von Lommels claim. There is as much scope to corroborate this claim as there is any other referenced claim in a paper, you look up the reference and judge for yourself whether it agrees with what the citing author says, in this case it clearly doesn't, assuming that is that the extracts I found online are reliable. TTFN, WK
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Imo, the study published in the Lancet scientifically confirmsthat consciousness exists outside of the brain and after death. The fact people can remember what happened when their brain is inactive and they are dead is proof positive of this. Just keeping a record of your standards of scientific credibility and skepticism.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
You can argue their claim EEGs are flat is based on insufficient evidence. Fine. I disagree, but at least we're debating within the realm of reality in terms of what the author is claiming. i'm arguing that they didn't measure it, just collected statistics about nde's during cardiac failure. i'm also arguing that interpretation is logically invalid, and the reading of that interpretation equally bad. but i'll tell you what; i'm gonna sit this one out until someone finds the sabom reference, and posts. i wanna see what it actually says first, before i say anything about it.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Right. As far as I know, usually this happens on a much smaller scale than what's being reported here well, not neccessarily. there are whole accounts from my childhood that i "remember" only because a picture was taken. the actual memory of the event has long since vanished, but i can remember parts that have been reconstructed from the image.
That's a pretty big hole, a lot of information. i don't really think it's a problem -- nde's don't tend to take very long. and a lot of the information is provided by the effects of a brain dying of oxygen deprivation (see all the references before)
And seems like there's a fair number of claims that suggest there's sensory data for the time of the NDE being incorporated. i wanna see what that sabom paper says. i'm inclined to not believe that (as test i heard about yeilded nothing).
I think it's dismissive to suggest that no conscious processes are happening during a flat EEG. no no, what i was saying above is that a flat eeg may not actually mean ZERO brain activity. it just means it's not strong enough to get a reading.
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