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Author | Topic: God says this, and God says that | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
Just my opinion too. I believe that faith is God-given (therefore I am against missionaries) but salvation, either in this world or the next, has to be earned. Btw I am no Christian so maybe this is a different theology.
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forgiven Inactive Member |
quote: christianity teaches that "all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory"... the difference between christianity and most other religions is in the effect of sin, and in how sin works to come between God and man... sin is like a disease for which NO cure exists... once you have it, you can't do anything at all about it... no amount of good works, no amount of work, will eradicate sin... man alone would have no chance for salvation but God... but God did something (with him it was not impossible) for us that we could never do for ourselves... he's the Great Physician, he's the one who has the only cure for sin, he's the one who can give his son's life as atonement, as propitiation, for our sin... so that's why we see "for all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory" followed by "but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" we can't earn it, we can't deserve it... salvation is ALL "of the Lord".... it's grace, pure and simple, and it's received thru faith, pure and simple
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John Inactive Member |
quote: This is similar to how I have always understood it to work. Christian sects quibble about the earning salvation part though. Gene, as far as I can remember, is the first person I have heard claim that faith has to be earned. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3849 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: You need the Atonement so that your sins may be forgiven (assuming you have developed, ie, earned, faith) and you need the Resurrection so that you may come forth from the grave in the day of Judgement. I'm not implying that you don't need the Saviour. We do each have a certain amount of tendency toward faith but I believe we can supplement our faith through diligent study, through prayer, by magnifying our callings, and striving to be more Christ-like. This concept is similar to the parable of the ten talents, in Matthew 25. (I am perplexed that all of you disagree because it seems like an axiom to me).
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3849 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: It means that if belief in God is unfalsifiable, and you claim to know there is no God, then, by definition, you have deceived yourself. In order to justify atheism, you must demonstrate that God is falsifiable, and that God has been falsified. Have you falsified God? And if not, how do you justify the active opposition of religion? I don't understand why you haven't confronted this. Mostly, you've just claimed that "it isn't your argument". Well what is your argument? You stated it a short time ago, state it again. If you are arguing that religion is bunk, how can this not be your argument?
quote: Fine. If I can remember why it matters I'll come back to it.
quote: You've become WORSE than Nos. At least Nos had a better sense of humor. If I'm going to have to tolerate offensive and ridiculous comments from you that duck the points and contribute nothing to the debate, please at least make them amusing to read.
quote: It works both ways. You were the one that brought up that argument, next time make sure that the argument only works one way.
quote: Then I suppose you disagree based upon your own fantasies. After all, you provide no more supporting argument.
quote: I agree. Just like atheism is a philosophy -- a religious philosophy, in fact. Most of the arguments in favor of either philosophy work both ways. We both claim knowledge, and neither of us can really claim empirical evidence. Therefore one is no more unreasonable than the other. Do you claim otherwise?
quote: Nope. You do what the KKK does. Hate-speech. Intolerance transcends merely physical actions. Heck, there's a certain Senator who is learning about that right now. [This message has been edited by gene90, 12-13-2002]
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funkmasterfreaky Inactive Member |
quote: It was the word earn that threw me Gene. Our faith grows as we spend time in prayer and study. The longer you walk with the Lord the more you know him. But I believe it's still given to us. I just have a problem with earning anything with God. Hope I don't sound like I'm attacking you Gene, it's just what I believe. ------------------saved by grace
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3849 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
If the word "earn" offends you then I won't use it. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words anyway. But I believe that we can grow our faith (regardless of the ultimate source of that faith) by doing as we are supposed to do.
Where was the Bible quote from? 'by grace are we saved through faith - and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God - not of works lest any man should boast' It sounds somewhat like a verse from Galatians in the KJV.
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Chara Inactive Member |
quote: In Hebrews 1:1,2 : God, who at different times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son ....
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Gene, I have to just drop this because you are stubbornly refusing to listen to what I say. I can do no more. I have corrected this misstatement on your part half a dozen times now.
quote: Funny. You must have missed the other dozen times I have said that I claim there is no evidence for God, but not that there is positive evidence against.
quote: Technically, opposition to religion isn't necessarily opposition to God. Religion is a human endeavor, or can be considered such.
quote: Where did you buy your blinders, gene? There a hell of lot I'd rather not see.
quote: Despite your stubborn repetition, it isn't my argument. What you have spent so much time fighting is something you have made up. I have corrected you numerous times, yet you refuse to correct your misunderstanding? I won't say what that does to you credibility. Tell me, gene, who knows what I believe with greater accuracy, you or me?
quote: I have already stated it yet agian in this thread, but I am quite confident that you will ignote that restatement once again.
quote: You cited the Bible. That is fallacious and irrelevant on so many levels I don't know where to begin.
quote: The argument isn't reversable. If it is it becomes a tautology and that isn't an argument but a definition-- ie a "Gene says so."
quote: You've become WORSE than Nos. At least Nos had a better sense of humor. If I'm going to have to tolerate offensive and ridiculous comments from you that duck the points and contribute nothing to the debate, please at least make them amusing to read.
quote: duh.... obviously!!!
quote: Gee, speech is bad ????? You are becoming a fine little censor. I don't like what the KKK has to say and most of it is easily dismantled, but stopping SPEECH is not something I support. Guess we differ substantially like that. By the way, you seem to have no problem stereotyping when it comes to the KKK. I happen to think christianity is every bit as horrible. Do I stop Christian speech? Nope. I respond in kind. But like I said, we are different like that. You are, by the way, illustrating exactly why I have such a problem with your faith. Thanks. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3849 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Only if you presuppose there is no God. Otherwise a religion might be the handiwork of God.
quote: No, I merely responded to your point:
quote: By referencing the Bible I merely pointed out that I disagree.
quote: It is, as it is valid to claim that theism and atheism are equally faith-based, as neither has any evidence. Do you disagree, as you are consistently claiming it is not your argument?
quote: Then there is more to your argument than merely, "there is no evidence for God", no matter how much you want to claim that I'm building strawmen when I point out that your claim is that there is no God. I agree with you, it is obvious that you are claiming more than merely a lack of evidence. Now you have two options: (1) concede that your belief in no God is faith-based, just as theism is because you have no evidence or (2) claim some kind of evidence that you are correct in claiming that there is no God or (3) concede that you don't know if my religion is correct or not.
quote: I'm not advocating any kind of censorship here. I'm calling you a bigot, and pointing out your lack of religious tolerance. This is yet another example:
quote: And likewise, you represent every negative stereotype of the atheist I know of.
quote: LOL!!! [This message has been edited by gene90, 12-13-2002]
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funkmasterfreaky Inactive Member |
quote: Just making sure Chara's little nugget of wisdom doesn't get lost here. This is the best answer to the original question that I have seen. ------------------saved by grace [This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-13-2002]
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3849 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
But that was 2,000 years ago. Is it your opinion that revelation has ended with Jesus' ministry? I'm not contending, only curious.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-13-2002]
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John Inactive Member |
quote: You must presuppose that there is a God. I do not have to presuppose the opposite. I can work with what evidence exists. I DO NOT have to presuppose that no other evidence exists. I can work with what is known, unlike you, who must assume something that isn't known.
quote:quote: The arrogance of this statement is staggering. No wonder you don't pay attention. You already know what I think.
quote: Assuming you way out of it isn't the same thing as bootstrapping your way out. I can make any one of a thousand assumptions and get out. MAKING UP STUFF IS EASY.
quote: Its obvious that you are building straw men. That is the only way that what you are saying makes any sense.
quote: Nope. More of Gene's fantasy.
quote: I DON'T HAVE A BELIEF IN NO-GOD. I HAVE NO REASON FOR A BELIEF IN GOD. It isn't the same thing. Do you have a belief in no-PlanetX, or do you have no reason to believe in PlanetX? Do you have a belief in no-extraterestrial life, or do you have no reason ( I assume ) to believe in extra-terrestrial life? The two claims are not the same, Gene. This is truly getting absurd.
quote: Like bloody hell.
quote: Though the term doesn't fit.
quote: Again you object to speech. You object to my having an different opinion than you. You object to my expressing that opinion. I happen to think the KKK is nightmarish and that Satanists are idiots. I happen to think that Crowley's followers are psychotic and that Crowley himself was insane, but with a spark of brilliance that occasionally came thorugh. I think environmentalists are blinded by their own dogmas and that that tobacco companies are murderous. Are you going to fault me for that? Really, you must, to be consistent. And perhaps you will, to maintain your pose. But the truth is that this isn't about fairness, truth, justice, freedom, and the American way. It is about Gene not liking his religion criticised.
quote: Like falsely accusing a stranger of pedophilia? Like insisting that ideas be censored cause they hurt Gene's feelings? Like resorting to personal attacks? Yeah, I suck.
quote:quote: The funny bit is that Gene can criticise an organization he dislikes, but refuses to allow the criticism of organizations he likes. You never told me where you bought those blinders? ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com [This message has been edited by John, 12-13-2002]
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John Inactive Member |
Chara's post seems to be missing.
It was post #182, though now this one has that number. Chara, did you erase it? ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com [This message has been edited by John, 12-13-2002]
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3849 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Then you claim that there is evidence that there is no God? Or will you concede that you have no evidence either way and are operating from a faith based position? Or are you willing to concede that I may be right? Which is it?
quote: Then do you have reason to believe in no-God? Or are you running on faith? Or do you not know if I am right or wrong? Which is it?
quote: I don't object to your freedom of speech, I just think you're a bigot (and other things). In fact I think your freedom to say offensive things only supports my opinions of your character.
quote: More like Gene not liking being called, "evil", "dishonest", "stupid", and other things simply for being a Christian. You said yourself that I should not have called you a bigot and a pedophile because I don't know you. How do you like it? And besides, your website supports my claims on your character. You have nothing but this board to assert that I personally am "evil", "stupid", "dishonest", etc. and you have absolutely nothing to assert that all my fellow Christians are those things. You are inconsistent. If you don't want to be called nasty things you should (1) not have given credence to support being called those things and (2) not have called other people nasty things. [This message has been edited by gene90, 12-13-2002]
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