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Author Topic:   God says this, and God says that
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 417 (26476)
12-13-2002 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by John
12-12-2002 10:38 PM


Just my opinion too. I believe that faith is God-given (therefore I am against missionaries) but salvation, either in this world or the next, has to be earned. Btw I am no Christian so maybe this is a different theology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by John, posted 12-12-2002 10:38 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by forgiven, posted 12-13-2002 7:18 AM Andya Primanda has not replied
 Message 171 by John, posted 12-13-2002 10:46 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 170 of 417 (26486)
12-13-2002 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Andya Primanda
12-13-2002 2:32 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
Just my opinion too. I believe that faith is God-given (therefore I am against missionaries) but salvation, either in this world or the next, has to be earned. Btw I am no Christian so maybe this is a different theology.
christianity teaches that "all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory"... the difference between christianity and most other religions is in the effect of sin, and in how sin works to come between God and man... sin is like a disease for which NO cure exists... once you have it, you can't do anything at all about it... no amount of good works, no amount of work, will eradicate sin... man alone would have no chance for salvation
but God... but God did something (with him it was not impossible) for us that we could never do for ourselves... he's the Great Physician, he's the one who has the only cure for sin, he's the one who can give his son's life as atonement, as propitiation, for our sin... so that's why we see "for all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory" followed by "but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord"
we can't earn it, we can't deserve it... salvation is ALL "of the Lord".... it's grace, pure and simple, and it's received thru faith, pure and simple

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Andya Primanda, posted 12-13-2002 2:32 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

John
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 417 (26495)
12-13-2002 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Andya Primanda
12-13-2002 2:32 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
Just my opinion too. I believe that faith is God-given (therefore I am against missionaries) but salvation, either in this world or the next, has to be earned. Btw I am no Christian so maybe this is a different theology.
This is similar to how I have always understood it to work. Christian sects quibble about the earning salvation part though. Gene, as far as I can remember, is the first person I have heard claim that faith has to be earned.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Andya Primanda, posted 12-13-2002 2:32 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 172 of 417 (26508)
12-13-2002 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by forgiven
12-12-2002 8:13 PM


quote:
here's the thing... if faith is required for salvation (it is) and if we can earn or deserve any aspect of our salvation (we can't), then what need of Jesus did we have?
You need the Atonement so that your sins may be forgiven (assuming you have developed, ie, earned, faith) and you need the Resurrection so that you may come forth from the grave in the day of Judgement. I'm not implying that you don't need the Saviour.
We do each have a certain amount of tendency toward faith but I believe we can supplement our faith through diligent study, through prayer, by magnifying our callings, and striving to be more Christ-like. This concept is similar to the parable of the ten talents, in Matthew 25. (I am perplexed that all of you disagree because it seems like an axiom to me).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by forgiven, posted 12-12-2002 8:13 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-13-2002 2:11 PM gene90 has replied
 Message 195 by forgiven, posted 12-13-2002 9:56 PM gene90 has not replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 173 of 417 (26510)
12-13-2002 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by John
12-12-2002 11:07 PM


quote:
It is your point that belief in God is unfalsifiable? Fine. How does this help?
It means that if belief in God is unfalsifiable, and you claim to know there is no God, then, by definition, you have deceived yourself.
In order to justify atheism, you must demonstrate that God is falsifiable, and that God has been falsified. Have you falsified God? And if not, how do you justify the active opposition of religion?
I don't understand why you haven't confronted this. Mostly, you've just claimed that "it isn't your argument". Well what is your argument? You stated it a short time ago, state it again. If you are arguing that religion is bunk, how can this not be your argument?
quote:
The conclusion follows from the premises, or it doesn't. But ASSUMING that the ARGUMENT IS CORRECT
Fine. If I can remember why it matters I'll come back to it.
quote:
I know that was a joke. That just has to be a joke.
You've become WORSE than Nos. At least Nos had a better sense of humor. If I'm going to have to tolerate offensive and ridiculous comments from you that duck the points and contribute nothing to the debate, please at least make them amusing to read.
quote:
Don't you mean that the other way around?
It works both ways. You were the one that brought up that argument, next time make sure that the argument only works one way.
quote:
At any rate, I disagree.
Then I suppose you disagree based upon your own fantasies. After all, you provide no more supporting argument.
quote:
Religion is a concept, a philosophy, whether you like it or not.
I agree. Just like atheism is a philosophy -- a religious philosophy, in fact. Most of the arguments in favor of either philosophy work both ways. We both claim knowledge, and neither of us can really claim empirical evidence. Therefore one is no more unreasonable than the other. Do you claim otherwise?
quote:
Intolerance as I have demonstrated? Have I assulted anyone on the street? Censored any books? Burned any churches?
Nope. You do what the KKK does. Hate-speech. Intolerance transcends merely physical actions. Heck, there's a certain Senator who is learning about that right now.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-13-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by John, posted 12-12-2002 11:07 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by John, posted 12-13-2002 2:43 PM gene90 has replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 417 (26511)
12-13-2002 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by gene90
12-13-2002 1:49 PM


quote:
We do each have a certain amount of tendency toward faith but I believe we can supplement our faith through diligent study, through prayer, by magnifying our callings, and striving to be more Christ-like. This concept is similar to the parable of the ten talents, in Matthew 25. (I am perplexed that all of you disagree because it seems like an axiom to me).
It was the word earn that threw me Gene. Our faith grows as we spend time in prayer and study. The longer you walk with the Lord the more you know him. But I believe it's still given to us. I just have a problem with earning anything with God. Hope I don't sound like I'm attacking you Gene, it's just what I believe.
------------------
saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by gene90, posted 12-13-2002 1:49 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by gene90, posted 12-13-2002 2:17 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 175 of 417 (26512)
12-13-2002 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by funkmasterfreaky
12-13-2002 2:11 PM


If the word "earn" offends you then I won't use it. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words anyway. But I believe that we can grow our faith (regardless of the ultimate source of that faith) by doing as we are supposed to do.
Where was the Bible quote from?
'by grace are we saved through faith - and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God - not of works lest any man should boast'
It sounds somewhat like a verse from Galatians in the KJV.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-13-2002 2:11 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Chara
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 417 (26513)
12-13-2002 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by David unfamous
12-05-2002 11:28 AM


quote:
Originally posted by David unfamous:
God seems to talk a lot in the Bible. At times he seems to go on and on and not shut up.
When did He stop talking? Was it just before we had recording technologies like tape cassettes, or film cameras, or is there a passage in the Bible that explains why he doesn't chat anymore?

In Hebrews 1:1,2 : God, who at different times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son ....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by David unfamous, posted 12-05-2002 11:28 AM David unfamous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-13-2002 3:05 PM Chara has not replied

John
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 417 (26515)
12-13-2002 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by gene90
12-13-2002 2:09 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
It means that if belief in God is unfalsifiable, and you claim to know there is no God, then, by definition, you have deceived yourself.
Gene, I have to just drop this because you are stubbornly refusing to listen to what I say. I can do no more. I have corrected this misstatement on your part half a dozen times now.
quote:
In order to justify atheism, you must demonstrate that God is falsifiable, and that God has been falsified.
Funny. You must have missed the other dozen times I have said that I claim there is no evidence for God, but not that there is positive evidence against.
quote:
Have you falsified God? And if not, how do you justify the active opposition of religion?
Technically, opposition to religion isn't necessarily opposition to God. Religion is a human endeavor, or can be considered such.
quote:
It amazes me how much effort you have put into dodging that.
Where did you buy your blinders, gene? There a hell of lot I'd rather not see.
quote:
Mostly, you've just claimed that "it isn't your argument".
Despite your stubborn repetition, it isn't my argument. What you have spent so much time fighting is something you have made up. I have corrected you numerous times, yet you refuse to correct your misunderstanding? I won't say what that does to you credibility. Tell me, gene, who knows what I believe with greater accuracy, you or me?
quote:
Well what is your argument? You stated it a short time ago, state it again.
I have already stated it yet agian in this thread, but I am quite confident that you will ignote that restatement once again.
quote:
You've become WORSE than Nos. At least Nos had a better sense of humor. If I'm going to have to tolerate offensive and ridiculous comments from you that duck the points and contribute nothing to the debate, please at least make them amusing to read.
You cited the Bible. That is fallacious and irrelevant on so many levels I don't know where to begin.
quote:
It works both ways. You were the one that brought up that argument, next time make sure that the argument only works one way.
The argument isn't reversable. If it is it becomes a tautology and that isn't an argument but a definition-- ie a "Gene says so."
quote:
Then I suppose you disagree based upon your own fantasies. After all, you provide no more supporting argument.
You've become WORSE than Nos. At least Nos had a better sense of humor. If I'm going to have to tolerate offensive and ridiculous comments from you that duck the points and contribute nothing to the debate, please at least make them amusing to read.
quote:
Therefore one is no more unreasonable than the other. Do you claim otherwise?
duh.... obviously!!!
quote:
Nope. You do what the KKK does. Hate-speech.
Gee, speech is bad ????? You are becoming a fine little censor. I don't like what the KKK has to say and most of it is easily dismantled, but stopping SPEECH is not something I support. Guess we differ substantially like that. By the way, you seem to have no problem stereotyping when it comes to the KKK. I happen to think christianity is every bit as horrible. Do I stop Christian speech? Nope. I respond in kind. But like I said, we are different like that.
You are, by the way, illustrating exactly why I have such a problem with your faith. Thanks.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by gene90, posted 12-13-2002 2:09 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by gene90, posted 12-13-2002 3:03 PM John has replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 178 of 417 (26517)
12-13-2002 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by John
12-13-2002 2:43 PM


quote:
Religion is a human endeavor, or can be considered such.
Only if you presuppose there is no God. Otherwise a religion might be the handiwork of God.
quote:
You cited the Bible. That is fallacious and irrelevant on so many levels I don't know where to begin.
No, I merely responded to your point:
quote:
You can't, so far as I know, bootstrap your way out of this pit and into an firm knowledge of any kind.
By referencing the Bible I merely pointed out that I disagree.
quote:
The argument isn't reversable.
It is, as it is valid to claim that theism and atheism are equally faith-based, as neither has any evidence. Do you disagree, as you are consistently claiming it is not your argument?
quote:
duh.... obviously!!!
Then there is more to your argument than merely, "there is no evidence for God", no matter how much you want to claim that I'm building strawmen when I point out that your claim is that there is no God. I agree with you, it is obvious that you are claiming more than merely a lack of evidence. Now you have two options: (1) concede that your belief in no God is faith-based, just as theism is because you have no evidence or (2) claim some kind of evidence that you are correct in claiming that there is no God or (3) concede that you don't know if my religion is correct or not.
quote:
Gee, speech is bad ?????
I'm not advocating any kind of censorship here.
I'm calling you a bigot, and pointing out your lack of religious tolerance. This is yet another example:
quote:
I happen to think christianity is every bit as horrible. (as the KKK)
And likewise, you represent every negative stereotype of the atheist I know of.
quote:
By the way, you seem to have no problem stereotyping when it comes to the KKK.
LOL!!!
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-13-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by John, posted 12-13-2002 2:43 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by John, posted 12-13-2002 3:58 PM gene90 has replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 417 (26518)
12-13-2002 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Chara
12-13-2002 2:20 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Chara:
quote:
Originally posted by David unfamous:
God seems to talk a lot in the Bible. At times he seems to go on and on and not shut up.
When did He stop talking? Was it just before we had recording technologies like tape cassettes, or film cameras, or is there a passage in the Bible that explains why he doesn't chat anymore?

In Hebrews 1:1,2 : God, who at different times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son ....

Just making sure Chara's little nugget of wisdom doesn't get lost here. This is the best answer to the original question that I have seen.
------------------
saved by grace
[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-13-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Chara, posted 12-13-2002 2:20 PM Chara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by gene90, posted 12-13-2002 3:14 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 180 of 417 (26520)
12-13-2002 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by funkmasterfreaky
12-13-2002 3:05 PM


But that was 2,000 years ago. Is it your opinion that revelation has ended with Jesus' ministry? I'm not contending, only curious.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-13-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-13-2002 3:05 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by forgiven, posted 12-13-2002 10:01 PM gene90 has not replied

John
Inactive Member


Message 181 of 417 (26523)
12-13-2002 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by gene90
12-13-2002 3:03 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
Only if you presuppose there is no God. Otherwise a religion might be the handiwork of God.
You must presuppose that there is a God. I do not have to presuppose the opposite. I can work with what evidence exists. I DO NOT have to presuppose that no other evidence exists. I can work with what is known, unlike you, who must assume something that isn't known.
quote:
quote:
Tell me, gene, who knows what I believe with greater accuracy, you or me?
I'm honestly not sure.

The arrogance of this statement is staggering. No wonder you don't pay attention. You already know what I think.
quote:
No, I merely responded to your point:
quote:
You can't, so far as I know, bootstrap your way out of this pit and into an firm knowledge of any kind.

Assuming you way out of it isn't the same thing as bootstrapping your way out. I can make any one of a thousand assumptions and get out. MAKING UP STUFF IS EASY.
quote:
Then there is more to your argument than merely, "there is no evidence for God", no matter how much you want to claim that I'm building strawmen when I point out that your claim is that there is no God.
Its obvious that you are building straw men. That is the only way that what you are saying makes any sense.
quote:
I agree with you, it is obvious that you are claiming more than merely a lack of evidence.
Nope. More of Gene's fantasy.
quote:
concede that your belief in no God is faith-based
I DON'T HAVE A BELIEF IN NO-GOD. I HAVE NO REASON FOR A BELIEF IN GOD. It isn't the same thing. Do you have a belief in no-PlanetX, or do you have no reason to believe in PlanetX? Do you have a belief in no-extraterestrial life, or do you have no reason ( I assume ) to believe in extra-terrestrial life? The two claims are not the same, Gene. This is truly getting absurd.
quote:
I'm not advocating any kind of censorship here.
Like bloody hell.
quote:
I'm calling you a bigot
Though the term doesn't fit.
quote:
and pointing out your lack of religious tolerance. This is yet another example:
quote:
I happen to think christianity is every bit as horrible. (as the KKK)

Again you object to speech. You object to my having an different opinion than you. You object to my expressing that opinion. I happen to think the KKK is nightmarish and that Satanists are idiots. I happen to think that Crowley's followers are psychotic and that Crowley himself was insane, but with a spark of brilliance that occasionally came thorugh. I think environmentalists are blinded by their own dogmas and that that tobacco companies are murderous. Are you going to fault me for that? Really, you must, to be consistent. And perhaps you will, to maintain your pose. But the truth is that this isn't about fairness, truth, justice, freedom, and the American way. It is about Gene not liking his religion criticised.
quote:
And likewise, you represent every negative stereotype of the atheist I know of.
Like falsely accusing a stranger of pedophilia? Like insisting that ideas be censored cause they hurt Gene's feelings? Like resorting to personal attacks? Yeah, I suck.
quote:
quote:
By the way, you seem to have no problem stereotyping when it comes to the KKK.
LOL!!!

The funny bit is that Gene can criticise an organization he dislikes, but refuses to allow the criticism of organizations he likes. You never told me where you bought those blinders?
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
[This message has been edited by John, 12-13-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by gene90, posted 12-13-2002 3:03 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by John, posted 12-13-2002 4:02 PM John has not replied
 Message 183 by gene90, posted 12-13-2002 4:30 PM John has replied
 Message 239 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 11:55 AM John has not replied

John
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 417 (26524)
12-13-2002 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by John
12-13-2002 3:58 PM


Chara's post seems to be missing.
It was post #182, though now this one has that number.
Chara, did you erase it?
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
[This message has been edited by John, 12-13-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by John, posted 12-13-2002 3:58 PM John has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Chara, posted 12-13-2002 5:02 PM John has not replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 183 of 417 (26526)
12-13-2002 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by John
12-13-2002 3:58 PM


quote:
I can work with what is known, unlike you, who must assume something that isn't known.
Then you claim that there is evidence that there is no God?
Or will you concede that you have no evidence either way and are operating from a faith based position? Or are you willing to concede that I may be right? Which is it?
quote:
I HAVE NO REASON FOR A BELIEF IN GOD.
Then do you have reason to believe in no-God? Or are you running on faith? Or do you not know if I am right or wrong? Which is it?
quote:
Again you object to speech.
I don't object to your freedom of speech, I just think you're a bigot (and other things). In fact I think your freedom to say offensive things only supports my opinions of your character.
quote:
It is about Gene not liking his religion criticised.
More like Gene not liking being called, "evil", "dishonest", "stupid", and other things simply for being a Christian. You said yourself that I should not have called you a bigot and a pedophile because I don't know you. How do you like it?
And besides, your website supports my claims on your character. You have nothing but this board to assert that I personally am "evil", "stupid", "dishonest", etc. and you have absolutely nothing to assert that all my fellow Christians are those things.
You are inconsistent.
If you don't want to be called nasty things you should (1) not have given credence to support being called those things and (2) not have called other people nasty things.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-13-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by John, posted 12-13-2002 3:58 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by John, posted 12-13-2002 6:07 PM gene90 has replied

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