Evolution for Dummies and Christians

Hey Carico... do you belive the earth revolves around the sun or the sun around the earth?Last time I checkd God's law was wrong on that one.

Carico. You have been repeating this same point in several threads. Have you bothered to read anyones refutations?You are compleatly, utterly, wrong. You don't understand evolution or how it works. Would you like to understand it?

Animals and humans DON'T exchange genes. This is not what the Theory of Evolution (ToE) says. ToE describes the process by which a given population of organisms change, geneticaly, over time.This "genetic drift" is caused by random mutation of the genome during reproduction. Think of your siblings, you don't look exactly like them do you? Now think about your grandparents, you probably look even more unlike them as well. This is due to small changes in the DNA which causes various similarities and differences to express themselves.ToE is much more complicated than this but your imediate family is a good example for explanatory purposes. Now imagine, if you will, those changes going back several hundred generations. I bet your ancestors 1000 years ago look way WAY different than you do today.Now imagine your ancestors 6 million years ago. Well, those ancestors didn't even look like modern humans ToE is basically little changes over vast amounts of time that compound uppon themselves to make big changes in the future.Do you have that so far? Let me know. And I will explain further as to why we say men are descended from a common ancestor with apes.This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-07-2005 01:46 PMThis message has been edited by Yaro, 12-07-2005 01:50 PM

Sir, with all due respect, you don't understand the theory. I am explaining it to you. It has nothing to do with, origins, or first offspring, or anything you just mentioned.Before the rest of the theory is "looked at" you first need to have a basic grasp of the theory. You don't have to agree with it, but you should first understand it. First, you are expecting two ancient primates to one day, have sex, and out pops a human. That's absurd and that isn't what happens. Remember what I said before? ToE is "genetic drift" (change) in a POPULATION over time.Several million years ago a population of ancient primates were isolated from the rest. Over time, these creatures began to change thrugh random mutation acted upon by natural selection. At some point in this process our common ancestor with apes arose.A common ancestor means we are both related to this creature. Modern apes would be your like your cusins. Our common ancestor would be like your grandparents.Do you understand this so far? Carico, by this point you should understand that the ToE does not require crossbreeding humans and animals. Do you understand this?ABE: If you are not following any of the points so far. Please ask me to elaborate on what is confusing you.This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-07-2005 02:14 PM

No we don't. The changes we are talking about are small and would not prevent the creature from mating within it's population. Remember the ENTRE POPULATION is changing, not just the individual.A good example would be dogs. Now, all dog breeds are in the same species, and they all came from wolves. Yet, all dog breeds can't mate with each other.Look at the chihuahua and the Great Dane. Now, both the Great Dane and Chihuahu are dogs, but for obvious physical characteristics (and iirc also genetic variation) they cannot interbreed! Does this change the fact that both came from wolves?Of course not. Chihuahuas, as a population, became succesively smaller over time while great danes became larger. It's the same way with humans and apes except projected over several million years. Well, first of all, animal is not a species. Animal is a kingdom. Species is a much smaller taxa. And species H. Sapiens, contains only us. So you shouldn't have a problem with this. Look at the example I just gave with the chihuahua. Then revisit this point. Random mutation acted upon by Natural Selection. The Natural Selection is the important bit. But let's not go here yet.Before we discuss Natural Selection you first need to grasp how eveolutionary change works. Again, revist the point about the chihuahua and the great dane. Once you understand that concept we will proceed.This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-07-2005 02:44 PM

Carico, do you know what dog breeding is? It is a well documented, known, fact that all modern dog breeds descend directly from wolves because HUMANS CREATED DOG BREEDS.It is a known fact! Some dog breeds have been created as recently as a few hundred years ago. It's done thrugh selective breeding.We can get big dogs from little dogs and vice versa. It's not magic, dog breeders do it all the time. Didn't you know this? This is known as an adhominem attack. So far I have not called you names or accused you of anything. I expect the same courtesy from you.Now, I am not going to proceed unless you understand the point about dog breeding. Do you now accept that chihuahuas and great danes are related even though they cannot interbreed?After all, WE CREATED chihuahuas and great danes.This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-07-2005 02:57 PM

Here is an example of the breeding we have done with dogsPomeranian dog - Wikipedia

quote:

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The Pomeranian originated from the sled dogs of Iceland and Lapland, which were eventually brought into Europe. The Germans improved the coat and bred the dogs down for city living, but they were still 20 pounds or more when they reached England.

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English breeders, through trial and error and Mendelian theories, are credited for reducing the dog's size and developing the many colors. The Pomeranian of today is small due to selective breeding, but the breed still retains the hardy disposition and thick coat typical of dogs in cold climates.

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The Pomeranian became internationally popular when Queen Victoria returned from vacation in Florence, Italy with a Pomeranian named Marco.

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The closest relatives of the Pomeranian are the Norwegian Elkhound, the Samoyed, the Schipperke, and the whole Spitz group.

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Here is the sort of sled dog (from which pomeraninans descend):
Sled dog - Wikipedia And we KNOW this, because WE, HUMANS, did it.EDIT: Changed the image to a Norweigan Elkhound. A closer relative than the Greenland Dog.This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-07-2005 03:07 PM

You obviously don't understand the point. Chihuahuas and Great Danes can't interbreed and we KNOW they are related.I am mentioning this is an example of how a POPULATION of animals can change over time to the point where they can no longer interbreed with the parent population.We wouldn't expect modern apes and humans to be able to interbreed. Although, not to cloud the issue, it's pretty likely humans and chimps can interbreed. We are close enugh geneticaly. Though the ethical questions involved prevent such an experiment.Anyway, do you understand now? Do you see how populations can change over time to the point where they can no longer interbreed with the parent population?

Carico, given all that has been explained, do you now see how a population of animals can change over time to the point where they can no longer interbreed? (e.g. Great Danes and Chihuahuas)This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-07-2005 05:07 PM

Hey moose, Im aware of the gray areas. And the fact that perhaps, (artifical ensimination) may produce offspring. The greater point however is that the physical difficulties involved with a chihuahua and Great Dane copulating in effect makes them unable to breed (under natural conditions).I am trying to give this topic a narrow focus in order as not to confuse Curico. I want him to understand the larger concepts first. Then we can get specific.

Hey Carico,Just got on, seem's like you are getting swamped!May I suggest to you, and to everyone, not to get into an argument. It will soon become a shouting match. I think we would all do best to simply explain to Carico how ToE works. Carico, I only ask that you listen, and follow along.Anyway, before I brought up the dog example. I showed you how we have bread dogs to be unable to breed (chihuahua Great Dane). I know we had a hand in it, but at least you can see that it is possible for genetic variation to lead to a group of creatures being unable to breed with a previous group of creatures. Do you agree with this Carico?If you do, we can move on. All you need to do is answer Yes/No.If you would like, me and you could have a Great Debate topic where only you and I will discuss. That way you won't be swamped by all the other board members. Do you think this would be helpfull?

Carico, again, no one is saying humans came from an ape.It's a common ancestor. Did you come from your cusin? No. But you are related by virtue of your grandparents.Millions of years agao there was an ape-like creature that lead both to humans and modern apes. No ape/human crossbreed necissary.Oh, and please reply to this mesage Message 241This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-08-2005 08:44 AM

Of course. But please, don't simply shout "AHA! SEE YOUR WRONG!" That get's us nowhere. If you see something you feel is in conflict, or that you don't understand, point it out. I would be happy to address the issue. Well, from what I have read from you so far, whatever you have heard for the last 30 years is compleatly worng. I'm sorry to say, but you are very misinformed.Look, you don't have to accept the theory. You can think it's total hogwash for all I care. But, it's important for you to understand how the theory works. I would like to explain it to you if you will listen. Well.... would you like to have a great Debate Topic Just you and me? Sure. I'm open to the possibility that I may be wrong. But you must first learn the subject you wish to debate. Namely the ToE.Would you like to start a great debate topic?This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-08-2005 09:02 AM

Well first off, before I address this, you need to understand two concepts.First, given the dog example (chihuahua and great dane) do you now see how one population of creatures can change to the point where they can no longer breed with a previous population?Second, do you agree that random mutations in genes occur, and that this is the reason for genetic variation "drift"?This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-08-2005 09:27 AM

Ok.. so you agree that it happens right? Random mutations and genetic variation. That's why we get tall people, short people, dark people, light-skinned people, blond hair, black hair, etc. Just random variations in the genome that crop up over time. We agree? Humans didn't manipulate the genes. It's a process known as selective beeding. And it's essentially what goes on in nature all the time. Except in nature humans aren't doing the selecting, the environment is.In any case, you can see that a chihuahua and great dane cannot naturaly mate? Even if size is the only reason. You agree with me there correct? That chihuhua is a dog bread to the point where it can no longer mate with other, larger, groups of dogs?