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Author Topic:   In defense of nihilism
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 181 of 306 (266784)
12-08-2005 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by iano
12-08-2005 6:25 AM


chance
Before we stray to far it would be worth while having a definition of what constitutes chance.
The "reason" or cause of an event can produce various answers. In one sense, the reason the nice person had the car wreck was that her brakes failed. But that's not the type of reason I'm talking about. I'm talking about the "final cause" or purpose of the car wreck. My point is that there seems to be no overall purpose in such events, on the face of it. It was an accident, of which life is full.
That's what I mean by "chance." Common sense tells us that events in life happen by chance-- a series of accidents. If life does not consist of a series of accidents, then such a view is an illusion created by God.
Why did God create this illusion? Why is God operating secretly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by iano, posted 12-08-2005 6:25 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by iano, posted 12-08-2005 12:29 PM robinrohan has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 182 of 306 (266827)
12-08-2005 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by robinrohan
12-08-2005 10:12 AM


Re: chance
My point is that there seems to be no overall purpose in such events, on the face of it. It was an accident, of which life is full.
No doubt you have been in situations where you're listening to someone talk about a particular trouble in their lives and while listening to them you're saying to yourself "well that was going to happen because of this, that and the other that went on before" You, outside the situation, unencumbered by the emotional attachment, can see as clear as day why things are the way they are. Whilst the person in the middle of it cannot. You have the big picture - they can't see it.
We are in the situation. People don't necessarily see Gods big picture working around them. Either we don't know God at all and have no reference point at all to the big picture and thus don't think there is a big picture. Or we know God and can to varying degrees see it all happening as he describes it will happen.
We read Ecclesiastes and see the man who has no knowledge of God arriving at nihilism. Or we read Job and who whilst suffering never loses God as the focal point in his life - even if he at times struggles with his faith in holding to the knowledge that this is all Gods plan.
God doesn't cause everything to happen directly. We have free will and things happen because of that. But God, though not causing everything directly, still knows everything that is going to happen - and has worked every single event whether caused directly by him or by us or by anything else into his plan.
He knew, for example, that the Jews would reject Jesus for the reasons they did and crucify him. Jesus crucifixion was an essential thing in Gods plan. God planned using foreknowledge but didn't cause it to happen (in the sense that any action on his part absolves the Jews of personal guilt)
That's what I mean by "chance." Common sense tells us that events in life happen by chance-- a series of accidents. If life does not consist of a series of accidents, then such a view is an illusion created by God.
It's not common sense - it is due to not knowing God. And God didn't create this situation. Adam did. God knew Adam would fall. And he worked his plan around that fact
Why did God create this illusion? Why is God operating secretly?
You mean why doesn't God just go and make himself known to everybody?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by robinrohan, posted 12-08-2005 10:12 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by robinrohan, posted 12-08-2005 1:04 PM iano has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 306 (266839)
12-08-2005 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by iano
12-08-2005 12:29 PM


Re: chance
You mean why doesn't God just go and make himself known to everybody?
That's exactly what I mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by iano, posted 12-08-2005 12:29 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by iano, posted 12-08-2005 1:36 PM robinrohan has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 184 of 306 (266854)
12-08-2005 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by robinrohan
12-08-2005 1:04 PM


Re: chance
I have been contending that God has designed a finely balanced mechanism whose end goal is to have us 'chose' freely for or against him. A way that doesn't tilt the scales in either direction. If he was to make himself manifest in an obvious way: say for arguments sake to show everyone a glimpse of life in hell and life in heaven - would that not destroy the very idea of free choice.
Remember, Gods motivation for doing all this is love. He wants that none should perish after all. But in wanting us to come into a perfect loving relationship with him he will not force us. It is perfect love he is after - not some sham. And a perfect love can only be one where the love is free-willingly reciprocated. Not for God a bunch of cowering automatons who are only there because they were afraid of the consequences or thought this heaven gig would beat hell hands down.
What way could God make himself manifest without ruining free will. He gives us the stupendous wonder of nature and folk are prepared disappear up their own backsides and follow the cause of it back to some speculative mathematical hodge podge of incomprehensible-to-anybody theory and say "we don't know yet - but we will someday!"
Sure, Jesus did miracles and they didn't believe him. If he did it today do you think the response would be any different. Optical illusion we would all say and clamour up to watch just as they did then
What manfestation would satisfy you without ruining you ability to make a free choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by robinrohan, posted 12-08-2005 1:04 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by robinrohan, posted 12-08-2005 2:58 PM iano has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 185 of 306 (266857)
12-08-2005 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by robinrohan
12-07-2005 1:19 PM


Re: the appearance of life
Hate to do this to you...
certain near-universal feelings that we have do suggest that people have perhaps a "moral faculty" as one has a rational faculty, and that some people's moral faculties work better than other's.
First of all there really is extremely little anyone can call "universal" in human feeling. Second, just because it is a common feeling in no way would suggest it is a sense or faculty. Finally, the concept "works better" is a judgement call.
Unless there is a universal set of laws, which nihilism should be undercutting, they can only be said to be working "similarly", not "better".
The desire to kill one's rival is pretty close to universal... does that make it "better"?
And as we intuit the assumptions of geometry, we also intuit the rightness or wrongness of certain actions.
That suggests there is some moral "quality" or "quantity" that exists in the world to be sensed. What would those be? Why is it not better thought of as sensing relations of internal subjective beliefs, rather than external realities?
There are all sorts of ways we can interpret our general abhorrence of certain actions without invoking God.
There is indeed one very good one... taste.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by robinrohan, posted 12-07-2005 1:19 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by robinrohan, posted 12-08-2005 2:16 PM Silent H has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 186 of 306 (266864)
12-08-2005 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Silent H
12-08-2005 1:43 PM


Re: the appearance of life
Hate to do this to you...
No problem. It was just a suggestion. "Taste" will do as well. Most of us have similar moral tastes, like most people like ice cream.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 12-08-2005 01:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Silent H, posted 12-08-2005 1:43 PM Silent H has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 306 (266874)
12-08-2005 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by iano
12-08-2005 1:36 PM


God's game
I have been contending that God has designed a finely balanced mechanism whose end goal is to have us 'chose' freely for or against him. A way that doesn't tilt the scales in either direction. If he was to make himself manifest in an obvious way: say for arguments sake to show everyone a glimpse of life in hell and life in heaven - would that not destroy the very idea of free choice.
Remember, Gods motivation for doing all this is love.
iano, if there was some woman out there who loved me, but never communicated with me and never even let me know she existed, because she did not want to "influence" my decision to love her in any way, she should hardly be upset if I don't love her back.
Or if there was some rich old man out there who kept doing all these secret things for me, like getting me jobs or having me "win" a lottery which was fake, but never let me know he was doing such things, because he did not want me to like him for just those reasons, he should hardly be upset if I don't feel any gratitude.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by iano, posted 12-08-2005 1:36 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by iano, posted 12-09-2005 11:01 AM robinrohan has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 188 of 306 (267155)
12-09-2005 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by robinrohan
12-08-2005 2:58 PM


Re: God's game
What manfestation would satisfy you without ruining you ability to make a free choice.
Bear in mind, whilst you ponder on this, the rather choice-compromising reactions of people who were in anyway directly exposed to God: glowing faces, struck blind etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by robinrohan, posted 12-08-2005 2:58 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by robinrohan, posted 12-09-2005 12:48 PM iano has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 306 (267193)
12-09-2005 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by iano
12-09-2005 11:01 AM


Re: God's game
What manfestation would satisfy you without ruining you ability to make a free choice.
Bear in mind, whilst you ponder on this, the rather choice-compromising reactions of people who were in anyway directly exposed to God: glowing faces, struck blind etc.
iano, I'm sure there's the possibility of something in betweeen the two extremes--what we have now, and the sky being rolled back like a scroll. But I think you have a point in suggesting that the theoretical concept of God "showing himself" is problematical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by iano, posted 12-09-2005 11:01 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by iano, posted 12-09-2005 1:04 PM robinrohan has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 190 of 306 (267197)
12-09-2005 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by robinrohan
12-09-2005 12:48 PM


Re: God's game
God has given us the evidence of nature. It can be written off as something natural and the ball kicked into the perpetual touch of theory. "There is no proof that God created."
God has given us the Bible - his word. "Fable!" One may shout. There is no proof."
God has given us a conscience. "There is no such thing as moral absolutes for want of a way to prove them"
Nature, his word, conscience. "No proof!!"
"Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" Folk will get the kind of irrefutable proof they all seem to desire. Some will be delighted when that happens. Others will wail and knash their teeth. But the will all bow and confess
I suggest re-examining what he has given with an open heart. If you humbly (not an unwarranted approach) ask him("if you are there") to help you to do so I imagine he will.
Good weekend Robin
This message has been edited by iano, 09-Dec-2005 06:06 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by robinrohan, posted 12-09-2005 12:48 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by robinrohan, posted 12-09-2005 1:10 PM iano has replied
 Message 192 by Silent H, posted 12-09-2005 2:17 PM iano has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 306 (267198)
12-09-2005 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by iano
12-09-2005 1:04 PM


Re: God's game
Good weekend Robin
It's cold outside. Warm fire. Tonight is wine night.
Might make a pretty good PNT--"How could God show himself more obviously?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by iano, posted 12-09-2005 1:04 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by iano, posted 12-12-2005 5:17 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 242 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-13-2005 1:28 PM robinrohan has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 192 of 306 (267221)
12-09-2005 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by iano
12-09-2005 1:04 PM


Re: God's game
God has given us the evidence of nature.
Yet we are not to believe what we see in it, according to Xians because it defies what is read in their book.
God has given us the Bible - his word.
Yet this book was unquestionably written down by men and altered by men over millenia. This book is in competition with other, similar books written by other men claiming the same thing you just did. And for some reason on top of having men handle his book, decided to write things that did not jive with what he made the world look like.
God has given us a conscience
And each person's conscience tells them different things. If they didn't we'd have no need for laws, and a question if there were moral absolutes.
Nature, his word, conscience.
Nature involves many consciences and both must be ignored to believe his word.
Folk will get the kind of irrefutable proof they all seem to desire. Some will be delighted when that happens. Others will wail and knash their teeth. But the will all bow and confess
That cuts in all directions. You have no more reason to assert this than anyone else.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by iano, posted 12-09-2005 1:04 PM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 193 of 306 (268051)
12-12-2005 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by robinrohan
12-09-2005 1:10 PM


Re: God's game
robin writes:
Might make a pretty good PNT--"How could God show himself more obviously?"
More obviously... with a view to what?. Making it easier to believe in him? It would be interesting to see what folk would think he should do to make this possible without interfering with our free ability to chose not to believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by robinrohan, posted 12-09-2005 1:10 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by robinrohan, posted 12-12-2005 8:29 AM iano has replied
 Message 197 by Omnivorous, posted 12-12-2005 11:31 AM iano has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 306 (268078)
12-12-2005 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by iano
12-12-2005 5:17 AM


Re: God's game
Making it easier to believe in him?
Exactly. If it's supposed to be so important that we believe that He exists, He might want to let us know He's around.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by iano, posted 12-12-2005 5:17 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by iano, posted 12-12-2005 10:03 AM robinrohan has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 195 of 306 (268103)
12-12-2005 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by robinrohan
12-12-2005 8:29 AM


Re: God's game
iano writes:
It would be interesting to see what folk would think he should do to make this possible without interfering with our free ability to chose not to believe.
Care to have a go at this here Robin?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by robinrohan, posted 12-12-2005 8:29 AM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by kjsimons, posted 12-12-2005 10:11 AM iano has replied
 Message 288 by LinearAq, posted 12-22-2005 12:09 PM iano has not replied

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