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Author Topic:   changes or mutations ... perhaps clarifying the terms in the process.
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 22 (267589)
12-10-2005 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
12-10-2005 11:02 AM


Re: Why "mistakes in copying "?
nwr writes:
Evolutionary biologists are usually careful to avoid language that suggests teleological committments. That is, except when talking about mutations. There they use terms such as "mistakes in copying" or "copy error", which suggests that the purpose was to make an identical copy but some sort of error crept in.
The literature seems to strongly suggest that evolution would not occur if there were none of these "copy errors". So we have an apparently strange system that only works because it doesn't work.
Why not a different terminology, such as using "different" or "discrepancy" instead of "error".
It seems to me that we could consider reproduction to be a creative process of constructing the next generation, with "variation on a theme of ..." as part of the creative process.
Well, this could, I suppose, spawn yet another thread. However, I personally have very little problem with teleology in the description of biological systems. What is the purpose (or if you prefer, "function") of an eye? To see. And of course we could come up with a vast number of other examples, whether they involve a variety of enzymes, intracellular structures, endogenous retroviruses which become active when needed to create a barrier to the mother's immune system in the placenta, or what have you. The important thing is that there is no externally-imposed teleology to the evolutionary process itself. But the biological world is rife with teleological (goal-directed) action and organs for performing such action. The important thing (in terms of naturalism) is the fact that such causation is an emergent phenomena -- and it is internal to the system which exhibits it.
If one attempts to avoid such language (where we understand the form of causation of biological systems by analogy with the goal-directed causation of our own existence), trying instead to state things in purely mechanical, reductive, value-free language, one loses sight of the biological systems themselves as systems. For example, how would one explain in thoroughly mechanical terms the function of an eye in relation to an organism's surivival or interaction with its environment (e.g., a cheetah hunting its prey) without any explicit or implicit reference to its function or purpose? How much much more would one have to write in order to avoid the role of vision while describing the role of vision in life -- and what precisely would be the point? So in this respect, I see no problem with the terms "mistakes, copying, errors, purpose" or for that matter, "reproduction, construction" or "creative" (although the last of these would be more at the level of a metaphor -- unless one considers the possibility that the capacity to evolve may itself be something which has evolved -- but that probably belongs to yet another thread). It may be possible to avoid teleological language in biology, but I cannot see how it would be desirable, and in all likelihood, the attempt to do so would simply result in a great deal of violence being done to one's logic and prose.
This message has been edited by TimChase, 12-10-2005 07:19 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 12-10-2005 11:02 AM nwr has not replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 22 (267598)
12-10-2005 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by RAZD
12-10-2005 12:56 PM


Re: Q: a non-issue or issue not dealt with? A:: still not dealt with.
RAZD writes:
so
how many different mechanisms are there?
to repeat the topic question a third time...
I think part of the problem lies in the question itself. There isn't one schema consisting of mutually-exclusive, jointly-exhaustive categories. There exist numerous schemas with categories which overlap with other categories in a variety of ways.
For example, a "transposition" is a "deletion" and an "insertion." "Transposition" and "retrotransposition" involve "insertions," where what was inserted may have originated from another part of the same genome, from an endogenous symbiont (e.g., a mitochondrion or chloroplast), or an infectious exogenous agent (e.g., possibly a bacteria, but far more likely some kind of virus). Any of these changes to the code could at least hypothetically take place during the copying of the genome in either meiosis or mitosis (although single nucleic polymorphisms -- also known as SNPs or point mutations -- would probably be more likely, yet I am aware of a random stuttering which sometimes lengthens the repititive sections known as teleomeres during the copying process), or they could take place at an earlier or later point. Similarly, a retroviral insertion (category 4) is a change to DNA as the result of chemistry (category 1), and a result of a viral infection (category 5), and may be due to some scientist intentionally or unintentionally exposing the host organism to a virus (category 6).
These categories which you have listed belong to different schemas which are used in different albeit often closely-related contexts. And sometimes those processes which you have pidgeon-holed into the same category actually belong to different schemas and contexts themselves.
This message has been edited by TimChase, 12-10-2005 06:19 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 12-10-2005 12:56 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 12-10-2005 6:36 PM TimChase has not replied

  
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