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Author | Topic: God says this, and God says that | |||||||||||||||||||||||
gene90 Member (Idle past 3850 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Humanistically based morality is weaker and it has no bite and no ability to spread, so that's why it's less dangerous? Interesting...
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gene90:
[B] quote: quote: No, think I linked to a site for gay LDS members who loved their church but not their church's homophoboic policies. It is possible that there are a lot of happy customers (interesting you would use that word), but it is also true that members speaking out against the LDS church is very strongly discouraged, and that many people have been excommunicated for openly criticizing the church. Maybe people are happy, and maybe they are afraid of speaking out. Maybe the reason there is very little moderate, middle of the ground criticism is because members get in trouble if they go public. This is exactly what many ex-Mormons claim happened to them. Are every single one of them lying? You still have not pointed me to or helped me find anything critical of the LDS church that you would approve of.
quote: Well, do you have any independent, non-Mormon sources which verify your claims? Why should I simply accept that which church people say is true of their church founder as historically-accurate if there isn't any outside verification?
quote: quote: Tuue, it's possible. I also happened to have done the most research into Mormonism compared to other sects.
quote: Will do.
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John Inactive Member |
quote: This hard empiricism is no better for your belief. Are you sure you want to go there?
quote: No it isn't. The fact that you can access it is the reason the analogy is faulty. It doesn't track with the claims made by religion.
quote: Sorry. No. I insist that your view of what is inside the box is unfounded, not wrong, and that the fact that it is unfounded is sufficient to make it unreasonable. Why is it that you cannot understand that "ignoring what we don't know" is different from "assuming that we know something for which we have no evidence?"
quote: If it is intangible it isn't male. But you are just making semantic quibbles. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com [This message has been edited by John, 12-16-2002]
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3850 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: There weren't any online. It was all too polarized. PBS did a show entitled "American Prophet" which I have not yet seen.
quote: I'm sure that some members probably resent their leaving, but I've never heard of anyone 'getting in trouble'. What troubles me is that you're insinuating that the church policy is to make people that leave miserable. It's ridiculous.
quote: Another sign that you have an axe to grind.
quote: What kind of verification? Journal entries? All of these such things are under Church control, so you can do like Nos did and claim we edit everything (a claim that is non-falsifiable). We're fascinated by our own history, of course.
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Um, noooo... It most certainly has the ability to spread, but it is actually stronger because it is not based upon what faith you may or may not have. It is stronger because it is not based upon fear of punishment, but upon doing good for it's own sake. Don't get me wrong; certain parts of Christian morality are wonderful. Other parts are not so wonderful, and others still are downright awful. The dangerous part is, like during the crusades, or during legalized slavery, or what have you, is that harmful, dehumanizing, despicable "Christian Morality" is accepted by large numbers of people who simply do what they are told to get into heaven/stay out of hell.
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gene90:
[B] quote: quote: Well, that should tell you something.
quote: quote: No, I am stating that people leave the church because they were made miserable while they were in it.
quote: quote: ...or that I know a bit of what I am talking about.
quote: So, does the church ever let outside scholars study the historical documents? Also, since the Church is a church, and not an academic institution, why couldn't the records have been altered over time? I mean, your church does a lot of secret things. Secercy is very big in the LDS mythos. [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-16-2002]
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Yeah, you do. Our key adaptation is social structure. Even if you deny that, it would be very hard to avoid society.
quote: Right, and when God's law includes slaughtering sinners the executioner cannot be blamed either.
quote: Wait. Aren't you anti-stereotype Gene? Or is it only a problem when the stereotype offends you? I happen to believe exactly the opposite and that really seems to piss you off. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3850 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: I'm talking about the money when it's in the vault. What happens when it leaves the vault is irrelevant to the analogy. But fine: when the bank closes at night and you can't access it does the money cease to exist? After all, you cannot check it.
quote: Yes. You. I wasn't talking about you.
quote: How is "unfounded" equated with "unreasonable"? If I claim that there's a rock in that box in the museum, my claim is unfounded. But that doesn't make it unreasonable. It only becomes unreasonable if you presuppose that there are no rocks anywhere, that they do not exist. What is "reasonable" and what is not is at least partially based upon worldview and what you already believe or disbelieve. Theism and atheism are both unfalsifiable because there is no evidence for or against God. And an agnostic who claims that Christianity is wrong is an internal contradiction and inconsistent.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3850 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: That's a valid argument, however humanistic morals are still 'optional', as whether or not you follow them the outcome is still the same.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3850 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Well yeah it does tell me something and you're not going to like what it tells me.
quote: I don't know about that. I've heard that some congregations are 'cold' but I'm glad I joined.
quote: Of that, I'm not sure. But I do know you did this 'research' for a reason. And I'm fairly sure I know why. You're out on a vendetta against the LDS church.
quote: We publish a lot of the documents as History of the Church. I don't know how the system works beyond that.
quote: As I said, the claim is unfalsifiable. Also, as I've said, you'll say just about anything to justify your position, won't you? Including unfounded accusations of intellectual dishonesty? By the way, I didn't know we had secrets. [This message has been edited by gene90, 12-16-2002]
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3850 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Still, you could be a hermit or a fugitive.
quote: If Christianity theology is correct, is it wrong for God to kill sinners?
quote: No, I'm stating fact. Non-theists only have to live the laws of their country. Christians are supposed to go further than that, help people and not lust and that sort of thing. If I were to say that atheists were "stupid", "evil", or "dishonest" that would be an opinion. And another thing. Quoting myself:
quote: I said "generally". I allow lots of exceptions. Unlike the intolerant claims on your website.
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John Inactive Member |
quote: And your analogy is not like the claim made by religion about God. Hence it is a false analogy and a fallacy.
quote: What?
John is sitting around arguing with me because he insists that my view of what is in the box is wrong. Is that not me?
quote: Strike me as tautological actually-- id, by definition.
quote: Sure it does. You pulled it out of thin air.
quote: ummmm.... no. The existence of other rocks has nothing to do with the existence of this particular rock in this particular box.
quote: Your version of what is reasonable is essentially "anything that anybody makes up"
quote: Not knowing whether there is a God is not necessary to argue that a particular religion is wrong, or highly questionable. Internal contradictions are quite sufficient for the purpose. Religion and GOD are not the same thing. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3850 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Yes. I see that is a tautology. I'll try again to make my point: If lack of evidence for God is sufficient for an atheist to claim there are no gods (no religion is correct), how can an atheist criticize Christianity for its lack of evidence, and be consistent?
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gene90:
[B] quote: quote: It is quite difficult to live completely outside of society. Nearly everyone lives inside a social structure.
quote: Sure, like all primates have done for a LONG time. Social structure is our thing.
quote: If God said it was moral to rape and kill, would it then be moral to rape and kill? If not, then God is bound by morality, not the other way around.
quote: Well, isn't that kind of why we have hunderdes of flavors of Christianity alone?
quote: quote: Unsupported assertion.
quote: quote: Or it could be true. The following is a link to an extensive list of sex abuse incidences put out by a progressive Epicopalian website. It lists all denominations: Sustainable Women's Clothing and Accessories | Reformation 84 Baptist Ministers 219 "Bible" Church Ministers (fundamentalist/evangelical) 39 Episcopalean Ministers 32 Lutheran Ministers 32 Methodist Ministers 12 Presbyterian Ministers 32 various Church Ministers
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3850 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: ???? Just like God the money in the bank is not generating any evidence you can detect with the senses. Therefore, if a lack of evidence is sufficient to disbelieve God, then a lack of evidence is sufficient for you to avoid investing in banks. Or else you are inconsistent.
quote: That sounds tautological to me. "Anything unfounded is unreasonable", therefor if the rock is unfounded it is unreasonable. I disagree. (From Merriam-Webster OnLine, Dictionary by Merriam-Webster: America's most-trusted online dictionary ) reasonable: being in accordance with reason b : not extreme or excessive I see nothing "extreme" or "excessive" about a rock sitting in that box. Therefore I disagree with "unfounded"="unreasonable". If I hadn't been outside yet today and I guessed the sun were up by now that guess would be unfounded by observation. But it would not be unreasonable. Plus it is loaded to call something "reasonable" or "unreasonable" because it is an appeal to your worldview, not to logic.
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