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Author Topic:   God says this, and God says that
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 293 of 417 (26825)
12-16-2002 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by nator
12-16-2002 2:34 PM


quote:
It is quite difficult to live completely outside of society.
But not impossible. And even within a social structure, if I am able to escape the law of the land then there is no reason for me to have any morals at all (without God). Therefore, morals are not absolute. Do you believe that morals change when you move from one country to another?
quote:
If not, then God is bound by morality, not the other way around.
An interesting (and feasible) theological perspective.
quote:
The following is a link to an extensive list of sex abuse incidences put out by a progressive Epicopalian website.
Sex abuse is inevitable in any large organizations, people (even ministers) aren't perfect.
However this does not support your claim that religious people are responsible for more sex offenses. It merely shows that it happens. Plus even the relative number of offenses per denomination is irrelevant because each denomination is not the same size.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-16-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 2:34 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 3:08 PM gene90 has replied

Chara
Inactive Member


Message 294 of 417 (26826)
12-16-2002 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by nator
12-16-2002 1:25 PM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
Religions say they know. I say that nobody can know. Therefore, religion is not valid. Not any of it.
Schraf,
Can you explain how you got to "therefore" from the previous statements? I'm confused.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 1:25 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 2:51 PM Chara has replied
 Message 297 by gene90, posted 12-16-2002 2:52 PM Chara has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 295 of 417 (26827)
12-16-2002 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by gene90
12-16-2002 2:24 PM


quote:
No, I am stating that people leave the church because they were made miserable while they were in it.
quote:
I don't know about that. I've heard that some congregations are 'cold' but I'm glad I joined.
The fact that you cannot even consider the possibility that someone might have been mistreated, even though there are probably thousands of personal stories to that effect out there, is beyond all comprehension.
quote:
...or that I know a bit of what I am talking about.
quote:
Of that, I'm not sure.
Of course you wouldn't be, because I do not agree with you.
quote:
But I do know you did this 'research' for a reason. And I'm fairly sure I know why. You're out on a vendetta against the LDS church.
I don't have a vendetta, but it is convenient for you to decide that I do, because you can then ignore and discount any and all criticism I raise against it.
quote:
So, does the church ever let outside scholars study the historical documents?
quote:
We publish a lot of the documents as History of the Church. I don't know how the system works beyond that.
I would be very curious to know if they have ever released the original documents to a university (not BYU) for study, and if so, what the conclusions were of this independent study.
If they haven't allowed any non-mormon scholars to study the documents, then it is basically religious doctrine and not really verified history.
quote:
Also, since the Church is a church, and not an academic institution, why couldn't the records have been altered over time?
quote:
As I said, the claim is unfalsifiable.
Well, no, it really isn't unfalsifiable. There could be evidence of editing, or not.
quote:
Also, as I've said, you'll say just about anything to justify your position, won't you? Including unfounded accusations of intellectual dishonesty?
And you will continue to reject any and all criticism of the LDS policies and doctrine simply because it is critical. Because you consider that I have a "vendetta", and therfore you can ignore everything I say.
quote:
By the way, I didn't know we had secrets.
All of the temple ceremonies are supposed to be secret.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by gene90, posted 12-16-2002 2:24 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by gene90, posted 12-16-2002 2:57 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 296 of 417 (26828)
12-16-2002 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Chara
12-16-2002 2:48 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Chara:
quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
Religions say they know. I say that nobody can know. Therefore, religion is not valid. Not any of it.
Schraf,
Can you explain how you got to "therefore" from the previous statements? I'm confused.

Hmm. Religions claim to know the unknowable. If someone claims to know the unknowable, their claims are not valid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Chara, posted 12-16-2002 2:48 PM Chara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Chara, posted 12-16-2002 3:06 PM nator has replied
 Message 323 by forgiven, posted 12-16-2002 7:23 PM nator has replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 297 of 417 (26829)
12-16-2002 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Chara
12-16-2002 2:48 PM


quote:
Can you explain how you got to "therefore" from the previous statements? I'm confused.
She assumes God is unknowable therefore all religions are false.
Her problem is not that she turns a lack of evidence into positive evidence that there is no God (as the atheist does) but that she turns a lack of evidence into positive evidence that God (by definition) is unknowable. Same fallacy, minor distinction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Chara, posted 12-16-2002 2:48 PM Chara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 3:12 PM gene90 has replied

joz
Inactive Member


Message 298 of 417 (26830)
12-16-2002 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by gene90
12-16-2002 2:24 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
As I said, the claim is unfalsifiable. Also, as I've said, you'll say just about anything to justify your position, won't you? Including unfounded accusations of intellectual dishonesty?
By the way, I didn't know we had secrets.

Um if memory serves Gene John Smith dug up some mysterious inscribed gold tablets, here in Vermont I believe, which he then translated behind a curtain while his wife wrote it down....
Did anyone else see these slabs? Are they around for us to look at? Is there anyway of verifying that they ever exsisted?
Not exactly the most auspicious start if you want to avoid claims of intellectual dishonesty....
(I`m now going to step out of this discussion because I personally don`t havwe any beef with the LDS church and I don`t really care if you are LDS, atheist, Xtian or anything else providing you don`t attempt to harm others and leave me free to form my own opinions.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by gene90, posted 12-16-2002 2:24 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by gene90, posted 12-16-2002 3:07 PM joz has replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 299 of 417 (26831)
12-16-2002 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by nator
12-16-2002 2:49 PM


quote:
The fact that you cannot even consider the possibility that someone might have been mistreated, even though there are probably thousands of personal stories to that effect out there, is beyond all comprehension.
Strawman.
I don't reject the possibility. I even admitted that some congregations aren't what they should be.
quote:
I don't have a vendetta
Despite the circumstantial evidence that you do? You have a motive, and you admit to spending a disproportionate amount of time researching LDS beliefs, and you spend a disproportionate number of posts debating against LDS theology.
All in all, I think that strongly indicates a vendetta.
quote:
There could be evidence of editing, or not.
Such as?
quote:
All of the temple ceremonies are supposed to be secret.
Sacred, not secret. If they were secret we wouldn't send people knocking on doors trying to get them to qualify to attend the temple.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 2:49 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by Chara, posted 12-16-2002 3:13 PM gene90 has replied
 Message 318 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 6:15 PM gene90 has not replied

Chara
Inactive Member


Message 300 of 417 (26833)
12-16-2002 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by nator
12-16-2002 2:51 PM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
Hmm. Religions claim to know the unknowable. If someone claims to know the unknowable, their claims are not valid.

And what is it that you define as "unknowable"? Just trying to get a sense of what you're saying here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 2:51 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 6:20 PM Chara has replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 301 of 417 (26834)
12-16-2002 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by joz
12-16-2002 2:53 PM


quote:
John Smith
Joseph Smith.
quote:
here in Vermont
No, though he was born in Vermont he moved to Palmyra NY at a young age. There was the source of the plates.
quote:
which he then translated behind a curtain while his wife wrote it down....
I'm not sure about the curtain part. Also, Oliver Cowdery served as scribe as well.
quote:
Did anyone else see these slabs?
Yes. Eleven people actually. Three saw them with angels and whole works. Their testimony can be found on the first pages of The Book of Mormon. Of course you can reject their testimony because they were all "Mormons", even though after Smith was murdered by a mob some of them left the church but never denied what they saw.
Then you have Smith himself who spent months in prison and was murdered without denying his beliefs. But of course LDS and even Christiendom itself aren't the only belief systems with martyrs.
quote:
Are they around for us to look at?
No, they went back to where they belong for safe keeping.
quote:
Is there anyway of verifying that they ever exsisted?
You'd have to be very creative. But it was never my point that this church or any other could be "proven" correct.
quote:
anything else providing you don`t attempt to harm others and leave me free to form my own opinions
I think that's a very respectful position, and logically consistent as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by joz, posted 12-16-2002 2:53 PM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by joz, posted 12-16-2002 4:29 PM gene90 has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 302 of 417 (26835)
12-16-2002 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by gene90
12-16-2002 2:47 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
quote:
It is quite difficult to live completely outside of society.
quote:
But not impossible.
OK.
quote:
And even within a social structure, if I am able to escape the law of the land then there is no reason for me to have any morals at all (without God).
Absolutely false. There is a great deal of social pressure to behave in certain ways.
Being shunned socially is very painful for us social creatures. We usually do a lot of conforming in order to avoid that pain.
quote:
Therefore, morals are not absolute. Do you believe that morals change when you move from one country to another?
No, morals are not absolute. They never have been, as I have pointed out.
quote:
If not, then God is bound by morality, not the other way around.
quote:
An interesting (and feasible) theological perspective.
Right, so morals may not be absolute, and may not originate with God, but are human constructs.
quote:
The following is a link to an extensive list of sex abuse incidences put out by a progressive Epicopalian website.
quote:
Sex abuse is inevitable in any large organizations, people (even ministers) aren't perfect.
But one would expect, if your claim is that morality is better spread and enforced by religion/Christianity is true, that the incidence of immoral behavior, such as sex abuse, would be lower in the religious community, not higher.
quote:
However this does not support your claim that religious people are responsible for more sex offenses. It merely shows that it happens. Plus even the relative number of offenses per denomination is irrelevant because each denomination is not the same size.
True, true.
My above statement still stands.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-16-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by gene90, posted 12-16-2002 2:47 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by gene90, posted 12-16-2002 3:16 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 303 of 417 (26836)
12-16-2002 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by gene90
12-16-2002 2:52 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
quote:
Can you explain how you got to "therefore" from the previous statements? I'm confused.
She assumes God is unknowable therefore all religions are false.
Her problem is not that she turns a lack of evidence into positive evidence that there is no God (as the atheist does) but that she turns a lack of evidence into positive evidence that God (by definition) is unknowable. Same fallacy, minor distinction.

I have a lack of evidence of God.
I do not know if God exists.
It pretty much ends there.
I retaract any statements I may have made that might indicate anything other than this.
I am not sure why theists make the assumption that God is knowable, even if God does exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by gene90, posted 12-16-2002 2:52 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by gene90, posted 12-16-2002 3:19 PM nator has not replied

Chara
Inactive Member


Message 304 of 417 (26837)
12-16-2002 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by gene90
12-16-2002 2:57 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
quote:
I don't have a vendetta
Despite the circumstantial evidence that you do? You have a motive, and you admit to spending a disproportionate amount of time researching LDS beliefs, and you spend a disproportionate number of posts debating against LDS theology.
All in all, I think that strongly indicates a vendetta.

Just a thought as an interested third party (can't say disinterested ). Gene, there are lots of times that something will catch my interest and I study up on it just out of curiousity. Then after attaining some knowledge, when the topic comes up, I actually have something to say. It has nothing to do with a vendetta. Schraf seems to be the type of person who likes to learn and she could have even studied the Mormon faith in her own search. Maybe you're reading too much into this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by gene90, posted 12-16-2002 2:57 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by gene90, posted 12-16-2002 3:21 PM Chara has not replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 305 of 417 (26838)
12-16-2002 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by nator
12-16-2002 3:08 PM


quote:
Absolutely false. There is a great deal of social pressure to behave in certain ways.
But if morals are defined by society then morals are not absolute and can change. For example, in Afghanistan in 1998, it was "moral" to deny women an education.
Plus, social pressure is irrelevant if you "sin" in secret. If you evade the law and hide from society then you have no need for morals.
quote:
No, morals are not absolute.
If you insist...
quote:
such as sex abuse, would be lower in the religious community, not higher.
Should be, assuming other factors are not skewing the data (culture, geography, competence of law enforcement, poverty, etc)
quote:
My above statement still stands.
Fair enough. I don't know how to falsify it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 3:08 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 6:37 PM gene90 has not replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 306 of 417 (26839)
12-16-2002 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by nator
12-16-2002 3:12 PM


quote:
I don't know if God exists
I find that respectable and sound.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-16-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 3:12 PM nator has not replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 307 of 417 (26840)
12-16-2002 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Chara
12-16-2002 3:13 PM


quote:
Maybe you're reading too much into this.
Could be. I wonder whenever we get into this debate but I really don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Chara, posted 12-16-2002 3:13 PM Chara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 6:42 PM gene90 has not replied

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