Metaphor vs. Literal

And in I Samuel 6:19 - "And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter." - is 50,070 villagers from one little town an approximation?

Honestly this is really not a problem, it is not hard to tell at all, although it is hard to define. It is ONLY a problem for those who just can't stand considering that someone could really turn into a pillar of salt, or that a man could be swallowed by a big fish, or that a serpent or a donkey could speak, etc. The text simply describes these things as history. There is NO clue that they aren't. But people decide they MUST be figurative just because, well, just because they MUST because according to them such things really couldn't happen. But on the basis of the text itself there is no reason to regard them as figurative. People just sort of HOPE they are or something based on their own level of intolerance of the idea of supernatural events and miracles.But then they insist that the story about Abimelech that IS clearly figurative, about the trees looking for a king, [Judges 9:7-21] MUST be real just because we say the other incidents are real.

There it sounds like they had a census figure to determine the number. Why does it matter? Whether we are talking about estimates or exact count the point is that the numbers aren't some kind of imaginative construct or symbolic or whatever they are suspected of being.

But that's a silly way to judge it.If the original word came down as X and three copies were made of that. Then subsequently one of those copies was copied and an error changed it to Y. Then 10,000 copies we made of that one, spawning their own copies over two thousand years, you end up with millions of wrong copies and only 2 correct ones.There's got to be a better way to judge the material than simply number of copies. You would need a strict lineage of each copy. You'd need to know exactly when and where the change was made.

But, what I'm asking is, can you show me an example of text that gives us reason to regard it as figurative.In otherwords, if we know Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt because it doesn't say that it's being figurative - that's fine. But can you give me an example of something which is to be taken figuratively, so I have something to compair it to.Once I have a sample of what is figurative and what isn't, it should be easy to sort out exactly what really happened versus what figuratively happened.

It's true there's no way to know for sure but the existence of a majority reading is strongly suggestive of a considered judgment that that is the best reading, and the scarcity or absence of the other reading in the later copies strongly suggestive that it wasn't approved by the churches.I believe there are some traceable lineages but far from all are traceable.This message has been edited by Faith, 12-13-2005 12:14 AM

I gave you the example of the parable of the trees in Judges. It was a story with a moral about the current political situation, obvious from the context and the fact that Jotham is telling it.There are plenty in psalms:Ps 18: The Lord is my rock and my fortress, my shield and my high tower. ...The sorrows of death surrounded me and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.Ps. 19: The heavens declare the glory of God...Day unto day utters speech and night unto night shows knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard... In them has he set a tabernacle for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoies as a strong man to run a race.Ps. 23: He maketh me to lie down in green pastures, he leadeth me beside the still waters... Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death... thy rod and thy staff they comfort me... thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enmies; thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over...Ps 22: Many bulls have compassed me; strong bulls of Bashan have beset me around. They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water and all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax, it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd...But of course that is poetry.How about Jacob's blessing of his sons, in Genesis 49: Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: ... The sceptre shall not depart from Judah nor a lawgiver from between his feet until Shiloh come... he washed his garments in wine and his clothes in the blood of grapes...Issachar is a strong ass... Naphtali is a hind let loose... Joseph is a fruitful bough whose branches run over the wall:Isaiah 59 Behold the Lord's hand is not shortened that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy that it cannot hear, ... For your hands are defiled with blood... They hatch cockatrice's eggs and weave the spider's web... we grope for the wall like the blind...as if we had no eyes; we stumble at noonday as in the night: we are in desolate places as dead men. We roar all like bears and mourn sore like dovesIsaiah 60 Arise, shine for thy light is come and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth and gross darkness the people, but the LORD shall arise upon thee and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to the light and kings to the brightness of thy rising...Isaiah 63: Who is this that comes from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, traveling in the greatness of his strength... Wherefore are you red in your apparel and your garments like him that treads in the winefat? I have trodden the winepress alone...Isaiah 54: Sing oh barren, you who did not bear; ...for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, says the LORD. Enlarge the place of your tent and let them stretch forth the curtains of your habitations; spare not, lengthen your and strengthen your stakes.Isaiah 55 (I can't stop finding these it seems, they jump out at me): Ho, everyone that thirsts, come to the waters and he that has no money come and buy and eat, yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Why do you spend monye for taht which is not bread, and your labor for that which doesn't satisfy? Listen diliegently to me and eat that which is good.Proverbs 9 Wisdom has built her house, she has hewn out her seven pillars; she has killed her beasts, she has mingled her wine; she has also furnished her table. 25 The liberal soul shall be made fat and he that waters shall be also watered himself 14 Every wise woman builds her house but the foolish pluck it down with her hands.Everywhere I open the Bible I find symbolic, metaphoric, figurative passages it seems.This message has been edited by Faith, 12-12-2005 09:21 PM

Good quotes, thanks.Some of these are very clear. Obviously, since no other mention is made of the son being a lion, they don't literally mean that the son is actually a lion.Some aren't so clear though. The last one, for example, about the woman who tears down her own house. Sure there is potential for a metaphor there, but then there is also a literal answer - that women shouldn't actually tear down their houses.Seems silly to take it literally, but then I'm sure there's going to be a flood (pun heavily intended) of quotes from people on the thread that are likewise iffy.

50,070 people from one village, back when Jerusalem might have had about that many inhabitants? And they all were smitten dead in one day for looking at the Ark? How long does it take for 50,070 people to file by and look in a box?

1 Samuel 6:19From the NIV yet from the KJV So the number varies. But in addition, no where does it say that they each had looked into the Ark.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Interesting. Evidence that the NIV isn't trustworthy I'd say. I can't get the Hebrew page to link directly, so go to 1 Samuel 6:19:1 Samuel 6 (KJV) - And the ark of the...and click on the "C" box to the left of the verse to get the Hebrew which clearly says 50,070, and refers to it as a "great slaughter." Then you could go back to the verse and click the "V" box to the left and that will show you some other translations, some like the NIV which is VERY different and some like the KJV. It appears to me to be a case of different sets of underlying manuscripts for the different translations -- no doubt the "earliest" and least trustworthy being the one used for the NIV. The NASB aggrees with the KJV but other modern translations agree with the NIV. We are discussing whether the numbers used are to be taken as literal, not whether they are accurately translated nor such questions as how many had looked into the ark.This message has been edited by Faith, 12-12-2005 11:50 PM

The topic is the literalness of the number, not whether it is accurate or whether they all had to look in the ark for God to punish the town for that transgression. They didn't, by the way.It wouldn't matter if the number were 50 thousand or only 50, the number can be taken as either exact or a close estimate. It is not symbolic or in any way figurative.This message has been edited by Faith, 12-12-2005 11:55 PM

I agree that there are discrepencies but that the earlier figures would likely be closer in content to the original. But it doesn't really matter. The whole story is probably figurative and meant as allegory anyway.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion