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Author Topic:   Death Penalty and Stanley Tookie Williams
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2033 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 31 of 54 (268960)
12-13-2005 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
12-13-2005 4:29 PM


Re: Death Penalty
no of course not. once damned, always damned. cause yeah. the rest of us are perfect and have never made mistakes, ever.

dear god someone's gonna say something stupid about 'messing up and stealing a twinkie from walmart is a little different than killing someone'. and it'll be the same schmuck who says that sin is sin and a lie is like murder.

and what does the bible say about hating is the same as killing?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2005 7:08 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 83 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 32 of 54 (268964)
12-13-2005 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by macaroniandcheese
12-13-2005 7:04 PM


Re: Death Penalty
i dunno, but watching cinemax at night is the same as adultery.
This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2033 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 33 of 54 (268969)
12-13-2005 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by arachnophilia
12-13-2005 7:08 PM


Re: Death Penalty
speaking of which...
This message is a reply to:
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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3879
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 34 of 54 (268977)
12-13-2005 7:50 PM


Let's not get goofy here
Not a place for trading "one-liners", much less "half-one-liners", etc.

Adminnemooseus


  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 54 (268980)
12-13-2005 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Omnivorous
12-13-2005 9:48 AM


Re: My changed mind
My experience has been pretty much the same as yours. I used to support it but changed my mind a few years ago. However, it was many years before that that I was convinced that we should only allow the death penalty in cases with strong physical evidence. Oddly enough, it was an evangelical Christian who argued that point on TV and convinced me of it (I think it was Billy Graham, but I'm not 100% certain) about 20 years ago.

One thing I've noticed since changing my mind is that the phrase "in order to provide justice for the family of the victim" sounds an awful lot like revenge.


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Replies to this message:
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bobbins
Member (Idle past 1718 days)
Posts: 122
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 06-23-2005


Message 36 of 54 (268982)
12-13-2005 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
12-13-2005 10:18 AM


Here is me - trying to come up with clever reasons not to have the death penalty - good answer.
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bobbins
Member (Idle past 1718 days)
Posts: 122
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 06-23-2005


Message 37 of 54 (268993)
12-13-2005 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by berberry
12-13-2005 7:50 PM


Re: My changed mind
As a lifelong opponent of the death penalty I find any discussion of the rights and wrongs of killing your own citizens bizarre. What are the reasons? What are the motivations? And I am not referring to the initial crime.

Reason 1 - Justice - otherwise known as the eye for an eye defence
Justice is only served when the victim of the capital crime is brought back to life when the perpetrator is executed. THAT is justice. Anything else is revenge.

Reason 2 - deterrant - otherwise known as the watch out defence
Most murders are committed in the heat of the moment - no amount of future punishment will stop their being committed. And since 1976 have capital crime levels dropped? I didn't think so.

Reason 3 - economic - otherwise known as the conservative rich defence
It costs more to keep someone on death row with all the appeals, stop-start execution on-off, and all that the death penalty entails than just to lock them up for life.

Reason 4 - Biblical - otherwise known as the small-minded defence
Because it says to kill those that kill in the bible is ok, just so we understand that my wife wears cotton, wool and polyester at the same time it is ok that I arrange her stoning this weekend (leviticus 24). Right!

Reason 5 - Political - otherwise known as the you are as fucked as they are defence
It is seen as politically expedient to be tough on crime. Fair enough. But when a life is a political issue and the politician sees favour in promoting a death then the politician is as morally bankrupt as the criminal in question.

I find the current situation in the US embarrasing. Surely you can see this. You have the highest crime rates in the developed nations. You have the highest murder rates. You have the highest gun crime rates. KILLING MORE PEOPLE IS NOT THE FUCKING ANSWER!!!!!!


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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19811
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 38 of 54 (269000)
12-13-2005 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by bobbins
12-13-2005 8:21 PM


Re: My changed mind
you wouldn't be suggesting it is just treating a symptom and not a cause?

ps - welcome to Team EvC

This message has been edited by RAZD, 12*13*2005 08:48 PM


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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 54 (269003)
12-13-2005 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by bobbins
12-13-2005 8:21 PM


Revenge
I agree with you, bobbins, and more than anything else I agree with your Reason 1. In the present case, after 26 years what can it be but revenge? Revenge is a seductive notion, one you can fall for without realizing it.

Why should justice for a victim be a consideration when deciding whether someone should live or die? A person should be convicted and punished based on the evidence alone, not considerations of justice for victims. It sounds harsh to say it, but "justice" in this sense is pure revenge.


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Replies to this message:
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bobbins
Member (Idle past 1718 days)
Posts: 122
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 06-23-2005


Message 40 of 54 (269009)
12-13-2005 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by RAZD
12-13-2005 8:48 PM


Re: My changed mind
of course not! Well maybe a little

The death penalty is a reaction not a solution.


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bobbins
Member (Idle past 1718 days)
Posts: 122
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 06-23-2005


Message 41 of 54 (269011)
12-13-2005 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by berberry
12-13-2005 8:56 PM


Re: Revenge
Capital punishment is seductive!!

You have a case of child murder, terrorism or any other heinous crime and any poll taken in the aftermath would suggest a massive surge of support for the death penalty. So what. Hell, I sometimes grit my teeth and wish death on the evil-doers when I hear some stories on the news. Then I calm down.

Murder can be in cold blood or in the heat of the moment. Execution is always in cold blood. And as a punishment, who has learned the lesson?


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 54 (269033)
12-13-2005 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by berberry
12-13-2005 8:56 PM


Re: Revenge
What's the problem with revenge, exactly? Did you consider the possibility that the reason we all are susceptible to seductive thirsts for vengance is because vengance is a really good way to ensure that everybody treats everybody else the way they want to be treated?

"Do unto others as they did unto you" pretty quickly results in a situation where everybody takes a second thought about trying to screw someone. I don't think it's without reason that, in game theory trials like "the prisoner's dilemma", vengance rapidly emerges as the top strategy for ensuring cooperation from your partner.

"'Vengance is mine' sayth the Lord", and all that. Even Christianity doesn't take a line against vengance; it merely makes an assertion about who has the authority to take your vengance for you.

Justice is revenge, sure. It's a social convention for the orderly retribution of transgressions on the transgressor, one that conviniently sidesteps the degenerate outcome of an escalating cycle of vengance. Does anybody have a problem with that? I sure don't.

This message has been edited by crashfrog, 12-13-2005 10:07 PM


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bobbins
Member (Idle past 1718 days)
Posts: 122
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 06-23-2005


Message 43 of 54 (269037)
12-13-2005 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by crashfrog
12-13-2005 10:06 PM


Re: Revenge
Call it a system of revenge then, not justice.

Revenge is after the event retribution. It is redundant, as the main event has occurred, and one of the the major participants is beyond reparation. We could open a coliseum and make revenge a major entertainment as well as an important salve for the inadequacy of society to progress ? It plays to our most basic needs/wants. 'I do not like it' - 'Stop it, Ban it, Kill it!'

Capital punishment seems to fill the same niche. I would point to deterrant as one of the flawed arguments for capital punishment - it just does not work. All we are satisfying is our age-old thirst for blood. And playing 'God', as if he/she, should he/she exist, would give a shit.


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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 54 (269038)
12-13-2005 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by bobbins
12-13-2005 10:26 PM


Re: Revenge
Call it a system of revenge then, not justice.

Maybe my thesis wasn't clear, then. What is justice if not revenge?

We could open a coliseum and make revenge a major entertainment as well as an important salve for the inadequacy of society to progress ?

Why bother, when we have Court TV?

All we are satisfying is our age-old thirst for blood.

I'm not hearing the downside.


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Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 54 (269046)
12-13-2005 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by crashfrog
12-13-2005 10:29 PM


Re: Revenge
I'm not hearing the downside.

Might kill somebody innocent.


"And from water we made all living things."-- The Quran
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