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Author Topic:   evolutionary chain
Christian
Member (Idle past 4420 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 151 of 204 (268327)
12-12-2005 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by NosyNed
12-08-2005 4:53 PM


Re: Maintaining focus
OH yeah, I was slipping off topic again. Sorry.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by NosyNed, posted 12-08-2005 4:53 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

    
Christian
Member (Idle past 4420 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 152 of 204 (268381)
12-12-2005 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by RAZD
12-08-2005 11:25 PM


Re: Pelycodus ...Horse ...Elephant?
Ok, if you can show me a gradual progression from a padded foot to a hoved foot, that will be good, since the horse is a pretty good runner on the feet he has, it's unlikely that this would just be a loss of something. Apparently that's what you've given me so I will have to research horse evolution and see how much validity there is. I'll let you know what I come up with.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by RAZD, posted 12-08-2005 11:25 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by RAZD, posted 12-12-2005 9:14 PM Christian has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 153 of 204 (268432)
12-12-2005 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Christian
12-12-2005 6:45 PM


Re: Pelycodus ...Horse ...Elephant?
K. Sounds like a plan. :)


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Christian, posted 12-12-2005 6:45 PM Christian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Christian, posted 12-14-2005 5:29 PM RAZD has responded

  
Christian
Member (Idle past 4420 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 154 of 204 (269327)
12-14-2005 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by RAZD
12-12-2005 9:14 PM


Re: Pelycodus ...Horse ...Elephant?
Actually that horse chart you gave me doesn't give a description of the foot at each stage. I would really like to see that. Do you think you could find something like that for me?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by RAZD, posted 12-12-2005 9:14 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 143 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 155 of 204 (269336)
12-14-2005 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Christian
12-14-2005 5:29 PM


hoof arted.
something like this?

quote:

This diagram shows the evolution of horse hind feet.
a. shows Hyracotherium, from 55 million years ago.
b. shows Miohippus, from 35 million years ago
c. shows Merychippus, from 17 million years ago
d. shows Equus, the modern horse, with its single hoof.

http://www.bpeah.com/ThereBack.htm


(quick google search) razd probably gave you more steps than that, but that's the idea. three equal metatarsels, to one dominant metatarsel and small toes on the side, to one fused metatarsel and vestigal toes, to the single toe and metatarsel of a modern horse.

This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 12-14-2005 05:55 PM


אָרַח

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Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by MangyTiger, posted 12-14-2005 5:59 PM arachnophilia has responded
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 12-14-2005 7:38 PM arachnophilia has responded
 Message 160 by Nighttrain, posted 12-14-2005 8:16 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 156 of 204 (269342)
12-14-2005 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by arachnophilia
12-14-2005 5:51 PM


Re: hoof arted.
Are those drawings by Haeckel?

I couldn't resist :)


I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then
This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2005 5:51 PM arachnophilia has responded

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 143 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 157 of 204 (269346)
12-14-2005 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by MangyTiger
12-14-2005 5:59 PM


Re: hoof arted.
i found a photographic one, but it was less clear. :P

if you click the link there there's another graphic showing ontogeny recapitulating phylogeny.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 31680
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 158 of 204 (269388)
12-14-2005 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by arachnophilia
12-14-2005 5:51 PM


Re: hoof arted.
Can you produce the evidence for the dating of these hoofs/limbs/appendages?

Can you show exactly where they were found?

Are the proportions correct or artificially made to appear the same size?

These are the sorts of questions a site such as the one you linked should be discussing instead of just spinning the usual evolutionist yarn, the usual evolutionist fairy tale.

This message has been edited by Faith, 12-14-2005 07:44 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2005 5:51 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8842
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 159 of 204 (269406)
12-14-2005 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Faith
12-14-2005 7:38 PM


The hoofs
Can you produce the evidence for the dating of these hoofs/limbs/appendages?

Why? They are found in lower layers as you go from right to left. Why do the precise dates matter? Any dating should be taken to the dating threads. It seems you (among others) don't accept dates but have no interest in attempting to answer the points made in the "correlations" thread in dating. Why is that?

Can you show exactly where they were found?

Why?

Are the proportions correct or artificially made to appear the same size?

I am sure they are not at the same scale. This is to show the transformation of form not size. Why does that matter?

These fossils exist. That is not a fairy tale.

These fossils occur in the order given. That is not a fairy tale.

These fossils are one of many evolutionary chains asked for. That is not a fairy tale.

Now you need to get into the details. Since you take things on faith alone with no reference to the actual data why do you care the tiniest bit about this material. It is of ZERO concern to you.

It would only be of concern to those who, unlike you, want to interfer with the education of students based on the available facts; those who, unike you, want to allow unsupported statements of anyones belief into the classroom; those who, unlike you, have faith that is so weak it they desparately need the support of the much miligned science.

Since you are not in those groups why did you bother to post in a thread that is concerned with objective facts? You are the one who uses a system of understanding that is willing to accept non-objective beliefs -- that is, what many understand to be fairy tales.

This message has been edited by NosyNed, 12-14-2005 08:06 PM


This message is a reply to:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2158 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 160 of 204 (269419)
12-14-2005 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by arachnophilia
12-14-2005 5:51 PM


Re: hoof arted.
Those middle toes look suspiciously like male thingies. Well---------some male thingies.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2005 5:51 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 143 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 161 of 204 (269421)
12-14-2005 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Faith
12-14-2005 7:38 PM


Re: hoof arted.
Can you produce the evidence for the dating of these hoofs/limbs/appendages?

Can you show exactly where they were found?

feel free to look up the species named in something that's not a webpage.

Are the proportions correct or artificially made to appear the same size?

they are made to appear the same size, but it's irrelevent to the morphology. they actually grow, from left to right, pretty consistently.

These are the sorts of questions a site such as the one you linked should be discussing instead of just spinning the usual evolutionist yarn, the usual evolutionist fairy tale.

not everything is a science text, and not all science texts are technical journals. want more information? look it up. otherwise, your requests for information are really just disengenuous rhetoric. you have no intention of finding these answers, nor would there be a way to satisfy you as to their accuracy if they were given to you.

christian at least is willing to go to a library and pick up a book, and read it, and approach it with a somewhat open and questioning mind.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Christian, posted 12-21-2005 5:01 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3198 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 162 of 204 (269422)
12-14-2005 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Nighttrain
12-14-2005 8:16 PM


Re: hoof arted.
wrong end train, they are fingers of the middle variety today.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Nighttrain, posted 12-14-2005 8:16 PM Nighttrain has not yet responded

    
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 143 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 163 of 204 (269423)
12-14-2005 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Nighttrain
12-14-2005 8:16 PM


Re: hoof arted.
Those middle toes look suspiciously like male thingies. Well---------some male thingies.

"intelligent design"


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Nighttrain, posted 12-14-2005 8:16 PM Nighttrain has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 164 of 204 (269497)
12-14-2005 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Faith
12-14-2005 7:38 PM


Re: hoof arted.
Are the proportions correct or artificially made to appear the same size?

I would say that (1) the overal size of each leg must have been adjusted to appear the same size to show the actual change in proportions of the different bones (and this is only about the changes in the bones) and (2) they have to be proportional adjustments for each leg shown to be worth using at all: that is the purpose of the diagram eh?

After all eohippus was 12 to 14" tall and a horse (equus) is 5-6 ft tall at the shoulder -- essentially 5 times as big based on overall size and not just of the hoof portion -- this would make the bone structure of the eohippus hard to see at the scale of the equus size.

And all the other leg bones have changed some in their relative proportions - judging from the skeletons presented - as well:

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/fhc/hyraco1.htm
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/fhc/equus1.htm

But what you are really seeing is feature evolution (extension and further development) of the hoof from the eohippus foot while the unused portions become vestigial elements.

The fusing of the toe bones in the equus hoof is also significant as it changes the behavior and ability of the bones relative to their function.

The hoof also has added elements that are not present in the eohippus foot, as noted above.

Enjoy.

btw -- (really bad pun arachnophilia. stinks. :laugh:


www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1157&m=1>Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 12-14-2005 7:38 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 143 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 165 of 204 (269501)
12-14-2005 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by RAZD
12-14-2005 10:12 PM


Re: hoof arted.
btw -- (really bad pun arachnophilia. stinks.

sorry, couldn't resist the temptation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by RAZD, posted 12-14-2005 10:12 PM RAZD has not yet responded

  
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