Ok, I'll make it even easier on you. Get 2000 animals, each group of 2-7 a member of a different 'kind'. I don't know what the heck a 'kind ' is, but supposing you figure it out, it should at least seem like the animals are enugh to create the variety we see today. Load them up on the wooden ship and set out to sea for a year.
The Bible tells us in Genesis chapter 1 that God created plants to produce seed ‘after their kind’ (vv. 11, 12). God also created the animals to reproduce ‘after their kind’ (vv. 20, 24, 25). ‘After their/its kind’ is repeated ten times in Genesis 1, giving emphasis to the principle. And we take it for granted. When we plant a tomato seed, we don’t expect to see a geranium pop up out of the ground. Nor do we expect that our dog will give birth to kittens or that Aunt Betty, who is expecting, will bring home a chimpanzee baby from hospital! Our everyday experience confirms the truth of the Bible that things produce offspring true to their kind. But what is a created ‘kind’? And what organisms today represent the kinds God created in the beginning? The creationist scientist, Carolus Linnaeus (1707–1778), the founder of the science of taxonomy,1 tried to determine the created kinds. He defined a ‘species’ as a group of organisms that could interbreed among themselves, but not with another group, akin to the Genesis concept. (www.answersingenesis.org) So, basically, that’s two canines, feline, equine ect.
.... that may qualify him to raise chickens or live stock, but certainly not the zoological/bilogical knowledge to keep, say, a giant panda alive for a year in a stuffy wooden boat full of other animals. So, i'll even go this far with you. The test "Noah" can be a farmer.
Ok, you should probably know by know, there were no Giant Panda’s on the ark, just two bears. And they were probably hibernating during most of there time on the ark.
Ok. I'll go this far with you. Our test Noah can let loose the 2000 BABY animals on a mountain in a fertile region of the middle east. How's that? You forget, they spent a year on the ark, most of the baby animals, though not full grown, were large enough to take care of themselves at this point. Oh! This get's better! Ok... I wan't our test "Noah" to gather 2000 BABY animals and cram them into the boat and keep them alive for a year. I hate to tell ya, but you just made your job significantly harder! Do you know the kind of special care babys take? You have got to be kidding me.
You do realize most of the baby animals he would care for were reptiles right? I’ve raised baby reptiles, (and other species) they are possibly the easiest baby animals to care for, with slow metabolisms, keeping feeding duty to a minimum for an animal of that size. And Fifth, the animals who got off the ark where mostly different from the ones we have currently. What that means is that instead of lions and tigers, you would have a large feline with the genetics of all the cats. You get my point.
Greta experiment! Lets get 7 "medium length coated canines", release them on a mountain in the middle east. Track them with radio transmitters and see how far they get and how much they change.
Or better yet, release a variety of domestic dogs into a desert in say, Australia, and see how far they get and how much they change. Oh wait, that’s been done.
Could you tell me about the three-toed sloth. How did he get to the amazon forest in south america? That's the only place he lives ya know, and he is the only one of it's 'kind'. How you figure he crawled all the way from ararat at an average of a foot a minute without dying of predation or starvation along the way?
I’ll give you a hint, the ancient sloths were 7 feet tall, and all sloth’s swim very well.
Ok. Let's talk about ring-tailed lemurs. Native only to madegascar. How you figure they got there from ararat without being eaten or dying from starvation?
Yet again, as I said before, there would be no lemurs, just two primates. So, just follow the trail of monkeys and apes.
I can take an old hollow log, seal the ends and, guess what? I've got a "model" of the Titanic. Or I can go down to my neighborhood undertaker, get a wooden coffin, seal the lid and, presto! I've got a "model" of the QE2. A boat that is 30 x 5 x 3 is...guest what? A boat that is 30x5x3. It's not a model of anything. You can scale the size of a boat and call it a model, but you can't scale the ocean. Wave action against a 30 foot hull is not the same as against a hull that is 300 or 400 or 500 feet long. The stresses are entirely different. Read the first few pages at the beginning of this topic to bring yourself up to speed, NotSoBlind. BTW - If I were a predator just getting off the Ark, I sure as heck wouldn't walk all the way back to Africa to get a meal. I'd just pounce on the first zebra or antelope coming out the door. And if Noah got in the way, I'd bite his ass, too.
One, they built a 120 foot boat in 1609, and that also stood up to the forces of the ocean. Plus, other wooden ships of that size survived longer ocean voyages, and they were not as structurally sound. Noah’s ark has been tested and found to be nearly impossible to capsize. Plus, if you have ever seen the release of a predator from even a short time in confinement, they don’t stick around, there out of there the moment you open the cage door.
Not to mention the fact that there is a severe shortage of man hours to care for the proposed 2,000 animals. Only 8 people on the boat with dietary needs, environmental conditions, and litterally tons of manure to be removed daily. Wouldn't the levels of ammonia in all the urine being expelled reach toxic levels very quickly in a sealed environment? This is just a guess on my part. Do you know how hard it is to get certain animals to breed in a zoo, let alone in the ocean!?
And there is the problem of providing conditions favorable for the production of healthy offspring. It's not enough to huddle the newborns into a crate and stick them in a corner of the ship.
One, the ark had one large window running along the side, providing adequate ventilation. Two, the average size of the animals that would had been with his were about the size off sheep. Three, along with the other animals on the ark, Noah had other species such as dung bettles and others to help with cleanup. Four, it would be easy enough to get rid of excess animal droppings, all that is required is to throw them out the window. Five: The animals would have cared for there own young if they were breeding. And since you all are telling me what experiments I can do to prove my theory, heres on for you:
If there were a basic principle of matter which somehow drove organic systems toward life, its existence should easily be demonstrable in the laboratory. One could, for instance, take a swimming bath to represent the primordial soup. Fill it with any chemicals of a non-biological nature you please. Pump any gases over it, or through it, you please, and shine any kind of radiation on it that takes your fancy. Let the experiment proceed for a year and see how many of those 2,000 enzymes [proteins produced by living cells] have appeared in the bath. I will give the answer, and so save the time and trouble and expense of actually doing the experiment. You would find nothing at all, except possibly for a tarry sludge composed of amino acids and other simple organic chemicals. How can I be so confident of this statement? Well, if it were otherwise, the experiment would long since have been done and would be well-known and famous throughout the world. The cost of it would be trivial compared to the cost of landing a man on the Moon… . In short there is not a shred of objective evidence to support the hypothesis that life began in an organic soup here on the Earth.’ Sir Fred Hoyle, British physicist and astronomer, The Intelligent Universe, Michael Joseph, London, 1983, pp. 20-21, 23.
I ain't gonna play games, quibble over semantics, or go down any rabbit holes. I am propossing an honest to god experiment that would cast some credibility on the flood.
I want to see 2000 kinds in a wooden boat. Certainly 'creation scientists' can muster the funds to finance such an endevor. They have enough money to lobby congress, make tv shows, publish books, and maintain dishonest websites.
Here is the experiment, I am sure the amount of money required can be budgeted and proposed.
The scientists must gather 2000 kinds. 500 of which may be babies. The boat must be built as specified in the bible. Modern tools may be used in the construction, but the boat it'self must adhere to engennering standards of 3000BCE. No modern ameneties should be on the vessel.
The 'Noah' participant will be supplied the 2000 animals. He will be a farmer, prefereably with no education beyond highschool. Prefereably an individual from a rural, empovrished, background.
The farmer may bring along 7 other helpers from his kin. The boat will have video cameras and other devices to log conditions on the vessel etc. The vessel is to be launched during a hurricane.
A crew of scientists will follow the vessel, with a weakly boarding in which they will inspect the crew, animals, and make any necissary observations.
This will continue untill the experiment fails catastrophicaly, or a year has passed.
At the end of a year we can see weather or not the animals survived. If they didn't, which I am sure they wouldn't, what would you conclude?
ABE: Also remember, that our 'farmer' is in charge of stocking the food and other supplies. The scientists may not aid him in this task.
This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-15-2005 08:54 PM
Which ocean do you propose that they swam? The Atlantic or the Pacific? What do you suppose they lived on during that long swim?
...they built a 120 foot boat in 1609, and that also stood up to the forces of the ocean.
120 feet is a far cry from 300 cubits. The practical length of a wooden ship is related to the size of the waves, since the ship flexes to fit the shape of the water. A ship almost four times longer would flex an awful lot more.
Noah’s ark has been tested and found to be nearly impossible to capsize.
No full-size model of Noah's ark has ever been tested, has it? Tests on scale models are irrelevant.
if you have ever seen the release of a predator from even a short time in confinement, they don’t stick around, there out of there the moment you open the cage door.
Yes, and they are killing and eating the herbivores from the next cage. There would certainly have been mass extinctions immediately after the animals were released.
the ark had one large window running along the side, providing adequate ventilation.
Today we have hog barns which are close to the same dimensions of the ark, so we know about caring for large numbers of animals in confined spaces. "One large window running along the side" is absolutely not adequate ventilation. There would be very few survivors after the first few days.
Noah had other species such as dung bettles and others to help with cleanup.
Two dung beetles (I'm assuming that dung beetles are "unclean"). Two dung beetles cleaning up after two elephants sounds like a rather one-sided competition.
it would be easy enough to get rid of excess animal droppings, all that is required is to throw them out the window.
Do the math. Two thousand animals at a several pounds per day, minimum, makes several tons per day, minimum. (This is assuming that the average animal is sheep-sized, as you claim. Of course the real numbers would be much larger.) And that's spread out over, say a hundred thousand square feet of deck space?
And don't forget that they have to put the same amount into the front end too. That's a minimum of several tons of feed per day for 370 days.
You try it. You don't even need the boat. Just try taking care of 250 animals all by yourself for a year.
The Ark measured 300x50x30 cubits , which is about 140x23x13.5 metres or 459x75x44 feet, so its volume was 43,500 m3 (cubic metres) or 1.54 million cubic feet. That’s about 522 standard railroad stock cars. If the animals were kept in cages with an average size of 50x50x30 centimetres (20x20x12 inches), the 16,000 animals would only occupy 1200 m3 (42,000 cubic feet) or 14.4 stock cars. (That’s assuming your going for the maximum 16,000 animals, if there were less, there would be even more space left.) Even if Noah put a million insect species on board, they would only need cages of four inches on each side, filling another 12 cars. That leaves room for five trains of 99 cars for food, Noah and his family, plus exercise room for the animals. Even if you don’t stack cages one on top of the other, the animals would need less then half the floor space on the ark. The Ark would probably have carried compressed and dried foodstuffs, and probably a lot of concentrated food. Perhaps Noah fed the cattle mainly on grain, plus some hay for fibre. The volume of foodstuffs has been calculated to have been only about 15 % of the Ark’s total volume. Drinking water would only have taken up 9.4 % of the volume. This volume would be reduced further if rainwater was collected and piped into troughs for the animals. It is doubtful whether the humans had to clean the cages every morning. (trust me, I raise animals, you don’t clean cages every day.) Possibly they had sloped floors or slatted cages, where the manure could fall away from the animals and be flushed away (there was plenty of water around.) or destroyed by vermicomposting (that’s composting by worms) which would also provide earthworms as a food source. Very deep bedding can sometimes last for a year without needing a change. Absorbent material (for excample, sawdust, softwood wood shavings and especially peat moss) would reduce the moisture content and hence the odour. (Although the smell would not exactly be like perfume at the end of a year at sea.)
It is doubtful whether the humans had to clean the cages every morning.
We're not talking about a couple of gerbils here. We're talking about 2000 to 16000 animals. (And you still haven't explained the discrepancy in the numbers.) Trust me, you do have to clean the cages every morning, and you won't be finished by noon, either. Remember, it's like taking care of a minimum of 250 animals by yourself. (And that number could be as high as 2000 by your own reckoning.)
Possibly they had sloped floors....
It's a boat, remember? The floors are always sloping - sometimes this way, sometimes that way. Not exactly a situation conducive to the control of raw sewage.
... where the manure could fall away from the animals and be flushed away (there was plenty of water around.)
First of all, you want to keep most of the water on the outside of the boat, don't you? And second, do you really want a lot of semi-liquid sewage slopping this way and that way inside the boat?
... destroyed by vermicomposting (that’s composting by worms)
That would be two worms again, right? Between them and the two dung beetles, they'd certainly have their, er, hands full.
Very deep bedding can sometimes last for a year without needing a change.
So, why do you suppose modern farmers don't do it that way? Why not just put thirty feet of bedding in the barn, then bulldoze it all out when the pigs go to market?
I'm afraid your "solutions" aren't even close to being adequate.
Bugger the animals,birds,plants,etc.,I want to know if Noah took all the bacteria and viruses aboard, or did God create them after the Flood? And fleas? A pair might give an ounce of trouble breeding up in ideal conditions. And mosquitos? I`ll skip the tapeworms.
I think it is hillarious when you propose such vast engeneering feats! We are talking about a middleeastern farmer in 3000BCE, and he is gonna know about plumbing? Verimicomposition? Give me a break!
Not to mention the fact that none of your Ad Hoc explanations would do you an ounce of good in this sittuation. As others have ellaborated, there are many more graves you are digging for yourself in this.
I started this thread in Sept. 2002 and I've been astounded by it's longevity.
To all who have participated, thank you. It's been a delightful way of getting educated to other points of view. But after thoughtful consideration, I'm still of the opinion that Common Sense remains on the endangered species list.
So, keep up the Good Fight. For those who are of the opinion that God created "kinds" of animals, please consider that we already have parrots. We don't need humans acting like them.
THINK, DAMMIT! Your head is more than a hanger for Ipod earphones.