Death Penalty and Stanley Tookie Williams

well. having been molested as a child...you learn to get over shit. if you don't you just implode. you can't sacrifice your whole life just because one bad thing happens. bad things happen to everyone.i think what separates us from animals is that we hold grudges and think so much stuff matters. lots of animals murder. some participate in active genocide. we're the only ones who linger on it.

That isn't even close to murder. You don't just get over being dead, or having someone very close to you killed, or someone getting killed in a hideous fashion right in front of you knowing that you may very well be next.Violence and violent death is much harder to deal with and move past. Uh... animals do try and kill those that are attempting to or have killed something close to them. They do attack and try to kill animals that they are aware are hunting them.Its fight or flight, and they don't all try to run and hide.What I don't get is with the above statement, why do you linger on whether some human animals kill some other human animals who have killed?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Sorry bout that....I am glad you are able to be so resilient to get over such a horrific event.But lets get this straight, I am not talkin about "getting" over it.
Or ones ability to forgive and move on. I am talkin about making someone pay for they're murderin,raping, lobotomizing with drills, psycosicko trophy head collecting necrophlliactic/pedophilliactic/ crimes.I am talking about makin them dead. So they dont breath air. So they dont have the pleasure to remember they're exploits. So the Jessica MClure's of the world are avenged. As a Clint Eastwood Character William Muny said: "There aint no forgettn and there aint no forgivin."

Ok folks... lets do a thought experiment.You are the father or mother of a beautiful child. Who you have nurtured and cherished with all your being. They are young and innocent. They are kidnapped from theyre beds...they are imprisioned...raped for days...tortured and bound and killed.
They're bodies dumped in a roadside pit like garbage.The Police catch the man who did it. He has the video tapes of his sexual torture sessions of your children in his home.Now.......do you turn the other cheek? are you satisfied with his life in prision sentence? Do you feel comfortable knowing he is alive and well and healthy with 4 hots and a cot? TV..library, congital visits....on and on? Be honest how many of you out there would like 5 minutes alone???

you have no idea. yes but after the individual dies (the one who was murdered) they tend to move on. because i think it's wrong to kill. i don't care how 'justified' you think it is. i think it's wrong.This message has been edited by brennakimi, 12-15-2005 06:56 PM

did i say it was easy?i said you do it or you implode.so okay. the guy is killed. do you think that solves it? do you think they can move on any better then? do you think they feel safer or that they then let their other children go out and play because that guy is dead?

How on earth would you know whether or not I would know? I've already asked you if you've even been close to a murder and it seems from your lack of answers you have not. I am on record here as having gone through a sexual assault/rape.On top of personal experience, research backs time and time again that violence is the major causative factor of trauma in adults and children. Even trauma from sexual abuse is linked more (if not solely) to violence and implied violence than actual sexual acts (other than those which cause actual physical trauma).I'm sorry were you approaching this from the "I'm a girl and your a boy so you must know absolutely nothing about sexual violence from a victim's standpoint"?Murder IS worse than molestation. If they can't do anything then yes. And I guess they don't go way out of their way to track down a murderer. Then again they don't exactly have the brain power and resources to do that either.Most animals tend to "move on" if they can't get access to food through simple attempts. Does that indicate what we should do?I might add that life imprisonment is more not "moving on" than the death penalty is. Isn't it? Yeah but a killer kills and you just said people should get over it and move on. Why can you do this when a killer kills an innocent person, and not when the state kills a killer.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I'm going to tweak RAZD's nose a bit, by reversing his connection between the abortion and death penalty causes.Often prochoice elements criticize prolifers for wanting all conceptions to be brought to term successfully, by challenging them to take care of all the unwanted offspring PERSONALLY.Something missing in the death penalty debate, where antiDPers want killers to remain alive, why is it not fair to ask such people to put their money where their mouth is and say okay as long as antiDPers PERSONALLY take care of all these convicted killers.In reality prison is not some magic place we send people. What it mandates is that we also have to send some wholly innocent person to watch over the convicts. You force someone else into danger so that you do not have to face it yourself. That makes it pretty easy to argue killers should be left alive, when you yourself are not faced with the imminent risk of getting killed by same on a daily basis.Since we have overcrowding in prisons, maybe that would be the best bet. All antiDPers can agree to take over for all those on death row. They can sit and guard all of these wholly innocent people (or odds apparently are they are innocent) and make sure they will not harm the rest of the community.Since most of these antiDPers also argue escape isn't really likely because prisons just need to be designed better (ironically arguing at the same time that all human efforts are flawed), they can put their designs for perfect prisons to the test!Heheheh...

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Hi Brennakimi,
I first off want to tell you that I applaud your benevolent nature in regards to forgivness. I am somehow incapable of this when it comes to this particular circumstance.I can forgive a man for accidentally hitting my car. I could forgive him for hitting on purpose. I can forgive a man for stealing from me. Cheating on my wife , I could forgive her too. I can forgive just about anything. EXCEPT:Unmitigated murder or torture or rape of a person. I do not try to justifiy my inability to do so. I also can not forgive purposeful cruelty to animals or humans. I get pissed off and I do not have it within me to just forgive the offending person. I do not think that a humans life is to be taken lightly. But I personally do believe that there are circumstances where a offense can be so aggregious as to warrent death. I realize we are more than the our worst offense. I know that every criminal is someones son or daughter who is loved. I watched "Dead man Walking" and it did move me emotionally. But coming to terms with the crime and asking forgivness is fine. But does that make everything all better? No. Is it right to take a life of someone who has killed. No. It isnt about what is right. It is about Punishment. Punishment is not rehabilitation. I do not expect you to understand, just as I am unable to understand how one can forgive a serial murderer. I will say you are the better person.

but not all people on death row are like that. most aren't. don't you get that?since we're talking about gang behavior...being involved in a gang (or other such group) affects your brain. it transforms three different parts of your brain. you're no longer in control of your own actions. now, sure, you're still responsible for them, i'm not arguing that. but it's not about killing people, it's about defending your family. it's a very bizarre thing. most of the people on death row are black guys involved in gang violence. they made mistakes. they aren't psychokillers.rich white boys who make mistakes don't ever have to pay for them... daddy pays with his wallet. unless they're in singapore.

no. i'm saying that when every day is unresolved because no one can know because his life will be ruined. when you're close to him. when you've forgiven but can't move on. no i haven't experienced a murder firsthand, but my father was stolen from me by a disease when i was a child and i can't imagine it being much different from that. i've known people killed in horrific accidents. stolen in a night of gruesome hell. i can't imagine it being much different than that. and of all these things, the one that lingers is the worst. and that is the molestation.and rape and molestation are different. people think i had something to do with mine. if they have the brain resources to wage war and to practice genocide and infanticide, then they have the brain power for vengence. but they don't practice it. oh that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard. it removes them from the street without demanding vengence. i'm refferring to this disgusting act of vengence. it's improper. it's vile. it's not an activity that a government should be participating in. i care a lot about what the state does because it's supposed to represent me. it doesn't. so i'm trying to change it. i just happen to be bitching about it here.

doesn't stand. the position of police officer is a voluntary one. they send themselves. besides. most cops were bullies in early life. they're hardly innocent. seriously though. they volunteer their service to society to try to make it safer. they understand the risks.

So is the role of parent and foster parent. Or whoever is taking care of the unwanted kids.The analogy is correct.But there is a difference in that the kids may not be trying to kill you, and there is no real economic position which might lead you to take a position as a caretaker. So when they say they would prefer to have killers put to death because it is a risk they don't want to be faced with, what is your answer?They may be willing to take some risks, but not all.Your argument would justify Bush's sending troops to Iraq, because soldiers knew the risk when they signed up. The question one should ask is would YOU be willing to face that risk? Otherwise one is being a hypocrite and coward and pretending one's decision to put another at risk isn't bad because one does not have to face it.AbE: BTW, didn't the killer know the risk they were taking by killing someone in a place where there is a death penalty for murder?This message has been edited by holmes, 12-17-2005 12:07 PM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

That's an indictment of the effects of society being intolerant, not the effects of molestation. You are describing something that is going on and on.An ongoing torture is worse than one that has ended. That just makes sense. If some killer was busy killing people you love every day, or the there was a threat that someone would be killed (maybe you) if you revealed the killer to the police, that would be quite similar in nature... and I would argue worse.Molestation is NOT worse than murder. The event itself pales in comparison to having someone killed, especially if that someone is YOU.Death by other means is not the same. Until you witness it, I guess you will not know. I didn't understand this statement. ??? But they do, just not in protracted search, judge, and destroy ways. You note they also don't have prisons.The genocides and infanticides you mention are all usually short term affairs, and not long plotted out events. Imprisonment is not a form of vengeance? Since when? You yourself described it as a form of torture that could be enacted on those that did bad things.In any case that did not answer my point. I said it involved less moving on than the death penalty. Doesn't it? We have to actively keep people in there, then debate whether to let them out, then what to do with them if we do let them out. They are almost always followed by being put in context of the crime... forced to be considered in that context. Well from my perspective vengeance is human and natural reaction to violence against onesself. It is cold death for personal pleasure which is vile and unhealthy to my mind. That is the kind of killing society should be able to protect itself from. That is an argument which is completely valid and I have no objection to whatsoever. Fantastic.You don't like it. The govt is supposed to represent your will and so you don't want the govt doing it in your name. Absolutely perfect. Nothing more needs to be said.And that's the problem, people keep moving on from that to try and justify their personal feeling as if there was some objective dimension to it. Something that others should or must agree with. But there isn't.I totally stand behind your position to try and remove capital punishment on the grounds that you simply do not like it. But I will fight your moves because I don't dislike it.And I won't call you vile and uncivil just because you feel opposite from me.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

WOW, are you ever wrong on that one! Capital punishment is EXTREMELY expensive compaired to life inprisonment.