EvC Forum: Mathematics and Nature

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Topic: Mathematics and Nature

RAZD

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Message 76 of 90 (270398)
12-17-2005 8:28 PM

Reply to: Message 75 by Son Goku
12-17-2005 7:42 PM

Re: Confusions of Topology = 1 math for another

However no sequence of atoms can arrange themselves into the shape of August Mobius.

or his strip. we haven't even gotten down to the molecular level of what the model really is in comparison to what the mathematical concept of what it should be.

you are still talking about a mathematical abstraction, now look at the strip of paper with the tape holding it together.

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	Message 75 by Son Goku, posted 12-17-2005 7:42 PM		Son Goku has replied

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RAZD

Member (Idle past 1423 days)

Posts: 20714

From: the other end of the sidewalk

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Message 79 of 90 (270460)
12-18-2005 8:00 AM

Reply to: Message 77 by Son Goku
12-17-2005 8:37 PM

Re: Confusions of Topology = 1 math for another

topological property

is a mathematical concept.

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	Message 77 by Son Goku, posted 12-17-2005 8:37 PM		Son Goku has replied

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	Message 80 by Son Goku, posted 12-18-2005 8:06 AM		RAZD has replied

RAZD

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Posts: 20714

From: the other end of the sidewalk

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Message 81 of 90 (270462)
12-18-2005 8:24 AM

Reply to: Message 78 by cavediver
12-18-2005 4:10 AM

Re: Confusions of Topology = 1 math for another

We are already discussing mathematics,

On a forum where anything over integration is esoteric maths.

You seem to have a problem with being corrected over a definition, and then bring up Wikipedia to defend your position.

Which does show a common definition, does it not? There are other sources of the same definition, but why bother if you so readily dismiss anything that doesn't match your "high" level of understanding eh?

I will finish by re-stating my point that it is not the paper loop itself that is my mobious strip;

Funny, I don't remember you saying this particular point in just this way before.

What you are really saying here is that the model is not the concept of the mobius strip.

in the same way that I point to not the apple but rotations of the apple as the realisation of the group SO(3).

And deal with a mathematical abstaction of the apple instead.

This has been my point all along - you keep looking at mathematical abstractions instead of the real object.

Back to the philosophy, but I really have lost interest now.

It's not philosophy but reality intruding on your philosophy. I deal everyday with making my involved, technical, esoteric mathematical approximations of reality work in the real world and take into account the fact that the math is not the reality to make it work.

The mobius strip is just one example of this reality. One that most people can see.

Enjoy.

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RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
	Message 78 by cavediver, posted 12-18-2005 4:10 AM		cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 83 by Son Goku, posted 12-18-2005 8:38 AM	RAZD has not replied
	Message 85 by cavediver, posted 12-18-2005 8:53 AM	RAZD has replied

RAZD

Member (Idle past 1423 days)

Posts: 20714

From: the other end of the sidewalk

Joined: 03-14-2004

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Message 82 of 90 (270463)
12-18-2005 8:26 AM

Reply to: Message 80 by Son Goku
12-18-2005 8:06 AM

Re: Confusions of Topology = 1 math for another

and so is the mobius strip concept, so comparing the topology to the mobius concept is comparing two concepts, not a concept to the reality of the model.

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	Message 80 by Son Goku, posted 12-18-2005 8:06 AM		Son Goku has replied

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	Message 84 by Son Goku, posted 12-18-2005 8:46 AM		RAZD has not replied

RAZD

Member (Idle past 1423 days)

Posts: 20714

From: the other end of the sidewalk

Joined: 03-14-2004

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Message 86 of 90 (270505)
12-18-2005 1:52 PM

Reply to: Message 85 by cavediver
12-18-2005 8:53 AM

Re: Confusions of Topology = 1 math for another

cavediver, msg 63 writes:

it is not too surprising that you say that my loop cannot possibly satisfy your definition, because it is not idealised. I am happy to concede this rather obvious point

cavediver, msg 74 writes:

I will finish by re-stating my point that it is not the paper loop itself that is my mobious strip;

Where this started:

razd, msg 31 writes:

We could argue about the concept of a plane as a surface, but let's cut to the quick and take {the still simple yet one level more complex concept of} the mobius strip: no such thing exists in reality.

Are we in agreement then? The mobius strip is a mathematical concept, the topological (mathematical) relationship that is mentally {visualised\extracted} from the paper model is also a mental concept and both are separate from the paper model.

AND that the paper loop is not a mobius strip but a model of one.

This really has nothing to do with understanding the maths at any esoteric levels, but with the relationship between the concepts and the reality of the models.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
	Message 85 by cavediver, posted 12-18-2005 8:53 AM		cavediver has not replied

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