Works, Faith, & Salvation (for Iano)

For the record, I totally agree with purdledawn here -- totally. Truthlover has clearly presented his/her case. And iano has not clearly refuted anything that Truthlover has pointed out as far as I've read so far.

I think you're misunderstanding me here.I might not exactly agree with Truthlover on all accounts here -- but I do agree with purpledawn that Truthlover has presented his arguments in a more clear fashion than you have. In addition to this, as purpledawn has also noted, Truthlover's thoughts are something which you haven't exactly addressed yet -- except to say that you disagree with them.

And, for the record, I agree with TL here too.Iano, you are shuffling around quite a bit here. Just answer TL's questions.Yes. You've established the fact that you do not agree with him. But you haven't said why.Whether you agree with TL or not is irrelevant at this point because TL's already answered your questions -- many times I might add.

I'd be interested in hearing this when you have the time.

Interesting, but I don't think Truthlover is arguing against different shades of meaning. Of course there are different shades of meaning to various words within the Scriptures -- and obviosly people grow within their faith -- but iano seems to be using this as means to build his case against the idea that works can jeopardize one's salvation.The point in question is not whether we can grow in our faith. Of course we know we can.The point in question is whether or not our actions count for anything, and also the lingering question of whether or not this "eternal life" can be lost once it is gained (no irony intended)?Truthlover has certainly pointed out various good points from the Scriptures which seems to be strong warnings about falling away from the faith. But, to my knowledge, iano has not effectively answered these questions. He indeed seems to be dancing around them as far as I can see.

Simple: God judges in proportion to the measure of faith each person has been gifted with. To those who much has been given much more will be expected of them. Not all who believe should presume to be teachers because they will be "judged" much more strictly than those who are weak in the faith. Only God knows the cut off point. Actually, the word try (and variations of this word fo appear quite often within the Christian Scriptures -- and in conjunction with salvation I might add:For example: Nobody understands some theological views which seek to push the concept of justification by faith well beyond the reasonable boundaries found all throughout the Scriptures before Paul elaborated on the heretofore unseen theodynamics of the Spirit's motion.Many, however, do understand some theological views which seek to resonably demonstrate the simpler concepts of justification by faith as being nothing more that stating that whatever is considered good in God's eyes comes by the Spirit moving an individual to do good.In the extreme example above, the theological views which seek to push the concept of justification by faith well beyond the reasonable boundaries conclude that God is damning anyone who does not believe.In the softer example above, the theological views which seek to modertate the concept of justification by faith within reasonable boundaries conclude that God is warning Christians to not think to highly of themselves lest they fall into the adversary's snare -- because God is doing this within them as they are led by the Spirit. Then why do the Scriptures state in 1 Corinthians 14:33? Here's another one: Here's another one: Nah...there's too much in the Scriptures which plainly states that God is quite understandable -- at least how he judges is quite understandable. I admit that there are some things about God that are not immediately knowable. However, it seems to me that those who need the doctrine of "justification by faith" to be able to be applied in the most strict sense also tend to emphasize the "incomprehensibility of God" to further their own ideas on salvation -- because, quite frankly, it doesn't even seem to make sense to themselves. So why is it fair for works to be used to measure the merit of each individual believer's reward in heaven -- but not fair when used to measure the merit of each individual potential to enter into heaven? It may be considered unfair by some -- but it is easilly understandable. If I see a child wandering on the road with a car heading toward them, and I run to push the child out of the way but end up being struck by the car and dying, it is very easilly understood that I gave my life willingly to save the child's life.Furthermore, in light of the child's future potential that has been saved by my sacrifice, the "unfainess" of the event is diminished by the hope that remains for this child's bright future.Now, about this dialogue concerning "second judgement", I have to admit that I don't fully grasp the thoughts expressed in this thread yet. It seems to me that there's some thoughts there that I can jive with. Others, however, I'm not so sure about.I'll step out concerning the main argument in this thread because I want to read and learn without derailing this thread.

Take care truthlover. Hope all goes well with you.

Take care iano. I think I'm going to be taking a break for a bit.Please note if I've said anything within our discussion that might have offended you, it wasn't intended to come across that way. Sometimes passions do run high when speaking in matters of faith.Even if I do not necessarilly agree with some of your theological views, I can see that you certainly have a passion for the faith and I hope that you find much growth in the things that you believe.Blessings in Christ to you iano.

It is good when we agree. In a sense yes.For example: Another passage which expresses this same thought is found in Daniel 5:27 which says, "Tekel: You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting."Revelations also seems to indicate a similar theme, "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."But, just to be clear, I don't think we are saved by our works. I thought I'd made this clear. Whatever good is in us comes by God -- by the Holy Spirit. And there's a lot of good in a lot of people iano.In other words, the default position is that of being saved by God's grace -- and that this grace can be diminished or even lost as one grows older. When I look to Adam (who is apparently a pattern for the rest of humanity) I see this same exact thing: a man who starts off in God's grace but loses some portion of it.I suppose one could argue that those who are going to heaven are "reserved" for it by retaining God's grace. Their salvation is not earned by any means. They simply followed the paths that they were fore-ordained to walk in.Conversely, one could argue that those who are going to hell simply "deserved" it by rejecting God's grace. They have totally earned it. They've strayed from the straight and narrow paths that God fore-ordained that they should walk in. Personally, I'm fairly sure that whoever is in heaven is already reserved to be there -- and anyone who is in hell deserves to be there. In other words, God already knows, by his Spirit, who is reserved for heaven -- and, by absence of his Spirit, he knows full well who deserves to be in hell.If I were to place these weightly matters concerning eteranl life in the hands of ordinary human beings, I might be concerned. But surely you're not suggesting that the Lord is incapable of rendering such clear judgements fairly?Furthermore, I think you and I have some different definitions of sin. Some sins, such as stealing a paper clip, are easilly forgiven (venial). Other sins, such as stealing a child's innocence, are not easilly forgiven (mortal). One sin, blaspheming the Holy Spirit, is not forgiven in this age -- neither the age to come. Exactly. But, what I'm suggesting, is that the cut off point for each indiviual could be very different from the next indiviual.At the most basic level, simply expressing remorse for one's actions and seeking to make amends for what one has done wrong is the "royal law". In a sense, with the goal of increasing life and forgiving each other, it is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.For those who have never heard anything directly from a Judeao-Christian, the Commandments related to our duties toward humanity could be our frame of reference. In other words, not killing, not stealing, not commiting adultery -- our duties toward each other. Even if one has never read the Scriptures, this knowledge appears to be encapsulated within the spectrum of all world religions.For example, the universality of marriage is a theme which runs through almost all cultures. Although there are some variations along the way from one culture to the next, the fairly well consistent theme is that of a man and a woman joining together in a potentially life-long devotion to one another. Again, although some cultures have variations, the majority do not appear to tolerate either spouse deviating from the union. There is often a spiritual significance too. Perhaps this dates back to our original parents in the Garden.For those who have heard the Judeo-Christian faiths, the duties related to God become more in focus -- the Sabbath for example. These commandments, in my opinion, are more subliminal than the other commandments which are related to our duties toward humanity. This isn't to say that they don't appear in nature. But it is to say that some effects are designed only for those who are willing to accept them.In this sense, I feel that the Christian is judged more strictly because they are more aware of their full duties toward God than others might be.In addition to these above factors, there's also the issue of age. Obviously a child is not expected to know as much as an adult. More is expected of the adult than the child. So too with matters of faith. Gods knows exactly who he has prepared to handle these things with maturity.One has to also take into consideration what people of faith might have done to the person who has rejected the faith. Perhaps under certain circumstances God can forgive someone who rejects his will if those who are supposed to be doing his will are not actually doing it. Again, in my own view, we Christians are judged more strictly because we shoud know better. And the Scriptures do say that God's name is blasphemed among the gentiles because of our failures -- not theirs.Matthew 11:23 plainly states, "And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day."And again...Matthew 11:24 clearly says, "But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."It seems to me that, based on passages like this, God judges in proportion to that which is revealed to each individual. To the one who much has been given, that much more will be expected of him.One might complain that I'm making the Christian revelation slide in to into a position absolute relativity. But I disagree. I think the Christian God is relatively absolute -- living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.Devil: Absolutely Relative (no frame of reference flung into total chaos}God: Relatively Absolute (perfect frame of reference revealing the spirit of all things)There's a big difference between these two perspectives. According to the parables in the Scriptures there is an extremely wide gulf between these two spiritual vantage points -- a gulf that no one but God himself can bridge. Wow is right.Do you honestly think that God would allow someone to drift into the oblivion of hell (eternal separation from God) for one lustful 2 second glance at a magazine on the top rack in the newsagents?I don't. In fact, something like this is what I would consider easilly forgivable -- and not deserving of damnation.The following, however, is a fairly good example of really bad stuff happening: I'll note that Christ seems to be saying that a) there is going to be woe in our lives no matter how hard we try. In fact, according to other passages of Scripture, in this life we will have tribulation -- so we should be of good cheer.However, Christ also seems to be saying that b) causing someone else to sin is extremly bad -- and it is especially horribly bad when little ones are involved.Sometimes when I reads this passage I think about the question "can God make a stone so heavy that he can't life it?" My general answer to this question is no. But I sometimes wnder about that too. It seems to me that God is not going to lift the millstone dragging the man to the depths of the sea. He probably can lift it -- but he ain't gonna do it as far as I can tell.Like I saud above, according to the parables in the Scriptures there is an extremely wide gulf between these two spiritual vantage points -- a gulf that no one but God himself can bridge. I don't think one lustful 2 second glance at a magazine on the top rack in the newsagents is going to make a difference either way. Because you are trusting in God for your salvation. Don't you believe on his promises? Me and you iano. We're going to heaven someday. We don't have any doubts about this. Where did Judas go?This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-09-2006 10:33 PM