George Bush protecting your civil liberties by breaking them

Right or wrong, if we are considered in a time of war, and under threat, Bush's actions are entirely consistent with other president's in our nation's history. It's not a new precedent. Lincoln suspended aspects of Constitutional rights when he felt necessary.Heck, we were probably closest to a police state while Woodrow Wilson was president.

Bottom line is this is how the government operates, and has so since it's inception. Nothing new here.Now, the question of strict constructionism, I agree that Bush does not hold to truly strict constructionism. If he did, I don't think we would have the No Child Left Behind Act, no Dept of Education, and certainly no federal gun laws whatsoever.But anyone that thinks this is the first time the CIA or NSA has secretly spied on Americans is very naive. It's propaganda time. You've got to understand that the president is expendable, but the national security apparatus is not, from their perspective. So the story comes out that Bush allowed tapping into e-mails, phone calls, etc,....and you guys jump on it like a hungry spot-tail bass on a free-lined live mullet.The unstated message is that the NSA only spies on Americans in such extreme circumstances rather than the truth, which is they spy on virtually all electronic communications in the entire world via Echelon and Carnivore systems. They can easily do this legally via their partnerships with the Aussies and Brits who are technical partners in the Echelon spy system.So while you're fretting about the possible Constitutional infringement of a hundred or so wiretaps, you aren't paying attention to the fact every single phone call, e-mail, and electronic communication world-wide is monitored, run through computer analysis, and specific people targetted at whim.

Holmes, every electronic communication is monitored, period, and run through computer analysis, and if warranted specific people's communications are monitored by more than computer analysis.Don't fall for the smokescreen.

And....? You just realizing the government doesn't follow the Constitution in many areas? You think the Dept of Education is part of the federal charter in the Constitution? Gun laws?

That's right. Presidents barely step over the line and get slammed all the time. The CIA kidnaps, tortures, experiments on and kills American citizens over a 40 year period (MK-ULtra), and nary a peep is mentioned by the mainstream media.Just keep that in mind, please.

These are the same powers Clinton tried to push through after the OKC bombing. It's bipartisan. Bush is not the problem.

First off, he has a legal loophole but you are so busy hating Bush, it's a waste of time talking with you about it.

That's where you are naive. WorldNetDaily was one of the few media sources reporting on Echelon back when the mainstream media laughed at the story. All the liberals I know dismissed it because it occurred in Clinton's reign. So please excuse me if I don't take the leftist hoopla very seriously here.Bush can easily eavesdrop legally via our partnerships with other nations and the NSA. It's not something new. It's being politicized for some reason. Ultimately, it's probably a disinformation campaign.Make a big stink out of these infractions, and leave the impression that the government is being restricted in this area all the while such activities are increasing. Same with the torture media stuff.It's disinformation, imo.

My outrage is informed, not misled. I've been railing about government snooping and breaking the law for a long time now. Those of us that oppose such activities are well aware that something as trivial as a president eavesdropping on suspected terrorists is small potatoes, and making a big fuss out of it leaves the wrong impression, that somehow such activities are generally exposed and stopped when the opposite is true.

And why don't you hold the NSA and CIA to be accountable under the law?Ever hear of MK-Ultra? Get back to me when you have a grip on this massive 30-40 year program, spying, kidnapping and experimenting on civilians, sometimes killing them, no one held accountable, and which had projects run out of every major research hospital in the country.When you are outraged by that, then we can talk.

Yep, what about it?You think I am defending the CIA?

Why don't you try to assemble a little bit of basic knowledge first?The typical waste-my-time substantiating stuff you will refuse to believe is not all that interesting to me. This is the Coffee House, not the science thread. I am speaking from memory, from watching the events and Clinton stating when the Patriot Act came out that he tried for the same stuff after OKC.If you don't want to accept my memory, fine. I really don't care because, frankly, I don't think you care about the infractions against the Constitution but just want to bash Bush. I think if you cared, you'd talk about Mk_Ultra and Echelon, and already be informed, but evidently you are not.

It's not clear that it is illegal. Arach's post gets into more details on that.

Theodric, dealing with the evos here has definitely resulted in somewhat of a harsher tone in dealing with posters in general at this forum, but in my defense, I asked you about Ml-Ultra and Echelon, and you ignored that and so it did seem like you were trying to just get me to waste my time substantiating something which would be ignored regardless.

Your post speaks volumes about your ignorance if you think MK-Ultra's activities were strictly legal, or Echelon's. Fact is as well that Clinton used Echelon to spy on people like Ron Brown to make sure they wouldn't talk, but let's just be honest here. You aren't really against the gov spying on people, are you? If you were, you'd have been against Clinton and Carter spying on Americans.Right?You are against a Republican spying on Americans. Frankly, I am too, but I am just as against the beaurocracy and dems doing this, and so I can see that all the big hoopla is pretty much a big fat lie, suggesting Bush's actions are something new, when they are not. I didn't really need to waste time backing them up at the time since it would soon be all over the news. Hopefully by now, you have read some of the news reports.