Works, Faith, & Salvation (for Iano)

truthlover, The problem is that terms like "saved" and "eternal life" and "redemption" have shades of meaning in the New Testament.One may have eternal life but not be swallowed up by that life. There is a seed of eternal life. There is the growth of that life. And there is the total swallowing up of our whole being by that eternal life.Lest we think that the gift of God's life is no more than a ticket which reads "Admit One" (to some happy place) the entire New Testament shows this life must spread thoughout our whole being.Since Paul ran the race until the end of his life, he never counted himself to have arrived at the complete saturation of eternal life. He had life, but he stretch forward to gain life, to gain Christ. And he wisely exhorted us to follow him. This requires faithful and consistent absorbing more of Christ as life into every part of our personality.So we should not grow tired of opening and allowing Christ to spread into more and more parts of our being. Paul never makes the gift revert back to the wages due work as far as eternal redemption is concerned.It is actually very simple. When one is born he is not automatically an adult. There must be growth and patience and development unto the full maturity of human life.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-19-2005 01:07 PM

Truthlover, First let’s see if the verses about growing to saturation with God’s life are all just talk:”I planted and Apollos watered, but God caused the growth” (1 Cor. 1:6)Is this just talk? God caused what to grow? Do you think he means that God caused them to advance in age year after year to get older and older? Foolishness. He is talking about the growth of the spiritual life that they have received.To grow here is obviously to have one’s personality filled with Christ. And another way to say that is saturation with Christ as life.To ”be filled in spirit” (Eph. 5:18) could also be phrased to be saturated in Spirit. And the Spirit is ”the Spirit of life (Rom. 8:2).”“ . in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but to be clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life” (2 Cor. 5:4)This certainly could also be expressed as saturated with life. And this is the eternal ZOE life of God. So it is not just all talk.”My children, with whom I travail again in borth until Christ is formed in you.” (Galatians 4:19).Is this just talk? They have received Christ but Paul labors that Christ would be formed in them. You don’t think that has anything to do with the growth of eternal life?”As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that you may grow unto salvation” (1 Peter 2:2)And interesting enough this verse does show a slightly different aspect of the word “salvation.” They received salvation in one sense when they were born again to become newborn babes. Yet Peter says that they need to grow unto salvation. Salvation is the issue then of a process growth. This shows a shade of meaning of “salvation” which is slightly different from other verses like Luke 19:9; 2:30; Romans 10:10; 2 Cor. 6:2; Rev. 19:1.” . holding the Head, out from whom all the Body, being richly supplied and knit together by means of the joints and sinews, grows with the growth of God” (Col. 2:19b)Do you care about the growth of the Body of Christ? Or is this just all talk to you?”But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ” (Eph. 4:15)Do you think this growing up into Christ the Head is just so much vain talk? [list][/qs]This is the list of verses you provided. I did not say that the shades of meaning of eternal life are specifically seen in these verses. But we will look at one or two of your (not my) candidates. If Timothy received eternal life upon being having Jesus Christ as in First John 5:12, then for him to lay hold on eternal life has a somewhat different shade of meaning then simply being regenerated to receive eternal life.He may have life in his spirit. But he must lay hold of the eternal life for it to have more and more impact on his living. If Timothy is to lay hold of eternal life he could very well say that in this aspect of his life or that aspect of his life he is seeking to lay hold on the eternal life.Yet he who has the Son has life. And he who believes that Jesus is the Christ has eternal life. So in one shade of meaning (if you will) he HAS laid hold on eternal life. But in another sense he is exhorted to lay hold on eternal life even though he has been saved for a long time. This is similar to the above case. Paul is talking to Christians. All who believe that Jesus is the Son of God have eternal life. In one sense they have already laid hold on Him. In another sense they are to live in such a way so that they may lay hold on eternal life in the future. That is to enjoy the reward of the in the time to come related to the faithful servants. Here again we see a slightly different emphasis or shade of meaning for eternal life. Is eternal life only for the future? No it is not. Clearly we are to enjoy eternal life in some aspect as soon as be become believers.”the spirit is life because of righteousness” (Rom. 8:10) The human spirit is eternal divine ZOE life at the moment of regeneration. He does not say that that human spirit will be life in the time to come only.Paul expected that the eternal life of Christ would be manifested in the bodies of the enduring apostles in the day of their labors, not just in the time to come:” . that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body” (2 Cor. 4:10)Eternal life is not only their hope for the future. It is their hope in their daily trials.
”Go and stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this life” (Acts 5:20).The angel was exhorting the apostles to testify to their present daily experience of this eternal life. The above couple of verses show that the disciples are to enjoy the life today and not just wait to enjoy it in the future. The ZOE life is by definition the eternal life. It is not the PSUCHE and it is not the BIOS. It is the ZOE - the divine and eternal life of God. Reward he did speak of. But reward is not gift. So when Paul speaks of reward he is not talking about eternal redemption which saves a person eternally. That is not a reward. That is a gift:”For by grace you have been saved through faith, and THIS NOT OF YOURSELVES; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD” (Eph. 2:8)Please excuse the shouting emphasis. But it is as clear as it can be. To be eternally saved from the second death is a gift of God and not of ourselves. Here again it is clear:”Not out of works of righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5)So human beings are eternally saved by God’s gift and not of themselves. And they are saved not out of works which they did but according to His mercy.Reward from works of righteousness then has nothing to do with eternal redemption. Reward as Paul speaks of it is related to something dispensitional and temporary. No I am not speaking solely out of my own belief. Both Christ Himself and his apostles spoke in terms of the growth of life.I already provided proof of this above. Paul intends that we would grow up into Him in all things - Ephesians 4:15The church itself must grow into a holy temple in the Lord - Ephesians 2:21;Peter exhorts us to grow. And John refers to little children, young men, and fathers in his epistle, which are all related to spiritual growth. See First John 2:12-19.Children of God cannot become mature sons of God unless there is growth of the life of God within them:Peter speaks of grace and peace being multilpied in our lives. And this multiplication strongly implies growth.”Grace and peace be multiplied in the full knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord” (2 Peter 1:2)
If you think that this growth of grace and peace has nothing to do with the life of God saturating and growing within the disciples then your understanding of the New Testament salvation is indeed very superficial.“Grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 3:18) Then please exlain to me what Paul means when he says:”I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth” (1 cor. 3:6)Paul planted WHAT? Apollos watered WHAT? And God caused WHAT to grow?I say Paul planted the divine life. Apollos watered the divine life. And God caused the divine life to grow within the Corinthian Christians.How can he speak of those who are mature and those who are carnal and infants (1 Cor. 3:3) unless there is levels of growth of the life that they have received?”And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to fleshy, as to infants in Christ”If there is no growth of the divine life than how can Paul speak of the church in Corinth as God’s farm or God’s cultivated land:”For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s cultivated land (or God’s farm) . ” (1 Cor. 3:9)
What do you think God is growing on God’s farm? Is He just growing the human life? If that is the case then the whole world of unbelievers is on God’s farm by virtue of the fact that everybody is growing older and older.The growth on God’s farm must be the growth of the life that has been planted within the believers as a divine seed (1 John 1:9; Matt. 13:4; 1 Peter 1:23) which has been implanted as the word of life into the believers (James 1:21).” . receive in meekness the implanted word, which is able to save our souls.”

Purpledawn's question was not addressed to me. But here is a reply for the general reader which addresses some of the matters.There are three words denoting the English word life in the NT.ZOE - life - the divine, eternal, uncreated and indestructible life of God. Every man should have this life in their God created spirit.PSUCHE - life - soul - the God created human soulish lifeBIOS - life - the God created physical life of manOnly the ZOE, the life of God is counted in the Bible as that which is REALLY life. PSUCHE and BIOS are merely created life. They are weak and temporal. Only the life of God, ZOE, is divine, eternal, and indestructible.This is the life of the Divine Being the Bible calls "The Father". And this God is "from everlasting to everlasting" (Psa. 90:2). That is the only One and the only life that is uncreated - that always was and always will be.Before all others life existed the uncreated ZOE life of God was and always will be.Two verses below show that unless man has the life of God he does not have life. Meaning he does not have the truest life which is REALLY life.”He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life” (John 5:12)”He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who disobeys the Son shall not see life.” (John 3:36)These verses show that in the eyes of God, only His life is life; beside that, no other life can be counted as life. Only the life of God, the ZOE is divine and eternal, uncreated and indestructible.PSUCHE and BIOS are not divine. Divine means being of God, having the nature of God, or being transcendent and distinctive from all others. Only God is God. Only God has the nature of God. And only God is the ultimate transcendent and distinctive life.When man has this ZOE life he has the divine person of God.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-22-2005 05:46 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-22-2005 05:47 PM

Sure it does. The analogy of labor and birth remind one of the formation of the natural life of a human baby. This spiritual labor is for the formation of the eternal life in the Galatians.If not what would you suggest is being formed in the Galatian believers if not the eternal life which is Christ - ”I am . the life” (John 14:6) ?When Paul says ”When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory” (Col. 3:4) is ”Christ our life” something else besides the eternal life?Christ the eternal life must be formed in the Galatian believers. The more of their being is filled with that life the more Christ is formed in them.Can you to prove that God gives to Christian believers two eternal lives - one which is “eternal life” and another which is “Christ our life?” This would be ridiculous. What is spiritual growth then? Learning more knowledge of the Bible is spiritual growth?Spiritual growth is the growth of the eternal life within our created life so that more and more our created life is mingled with Christ as our life.To mingled two things together is to combine them in such a way that the two components remain distinguishable in the combination. The more life grows in the believers the more they are mingled with Christ.How this relates to Galatians 6:7-8 concerns whether a believers will be rewarded with the enjoyment of the mature growth of life in the millennial kingdom or whether, having sown instead to his fallen nature, he will reap the negative effects of his refusal to mature.Any reward or punishment is temporary and cannot last more than 1,000 years. Galatians 6:7-8 could be accompanied with 1 Corinthians 3:14-17 where Paul speaks of the examination of the work each believer has done on the foundation of Christ which he has laid for the church:If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.

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If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”The fleshy and fleshly carnal believers in Corinth are like those in Galatians who sow to the flesh. They will reap corruption. And in the examination before Jesus Christ instead of a reward they will reap punishment for the corruption. Yet they themselves will be saved as through fire.These must be set aside to mature while the rewarded brothers and sisters who sowed to the Spirit and reaped the maturity of life enjoy that life in the millennial kingdom.By the time of the end of the millennial kingdom, the sluggish and disciplined ones have also matured and all enjoy the gift of the endless age of the new heaven and the new earth. It does say that in the future we will enjoy reaping eternal life. But the Spirit is this eternal life TODAY. And we must sow to the Spirit of life today. So in another sense we believers have the eternal life and in the future will be rewarded (in the millennial kingdom) with how we allow the life to develop and grow and mature within us.Now to demonstrate that the Spirit is the eternal life today I would refer to these verses:”For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus . ” (Rom. 8:2)The Holy Spirit is the divine ZOE of God - the eternal life.”It is the Spirit who gives life . ” (John 6:63)The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of life (Rom. 8:2) who gives life during the church age.”Who has made us able ministers of a new covenant, . ministers of the Spirit for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life” (See 2 Cor. 3:6)The apostles in the church age are ministers of the Spirit of life, who unlike the letter that kills, gives eternal life. And that He does in the church age.”The last Adam became a life giving Spirit”Jesus Christ who is the life (John 14:6; 11:25) came that the believers could have life and have it abundantly (John 10:10). He gives life by becoming the ”life giving Spirit” and giving Himself to us in the church age.The Spirit Who is life (Rom. 8:2) is Christ, the last Adam Who became the life giving Spirit to give eternal life during the church age.Finally, the Spirit of eternal life is given to the disciples in the present age to be a pledge and a foretaste of more of the same to come in the future:” . you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance . ” (Eph. 1:14)”He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge” (2 Cor. 1:22)”Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given to us the Spirit as a pledge” (2 Cor. 5:5) Since we Christians are given the “eternal Spirit” (Heb. 9:14) Who is the “Spirit of [ZOE] life (Rom. 8:2) as a foretaste; a seal; a pledge; a “downpayment” so to speak, we have present day appetizer of a fuller enjoyment to come in the future. And this appetizer is of eternal life.Concerning Second Peter 1:5-11 you remark: I agree with you this passages shows growth for obtaining a rich entrance into the kingdom in the future.But I would draw to your attention other matters which we should not neglect also.Firstly, in the same epistle Peter says that the disciples have ”become partakers of the divine nature” (1:4) in the church age.The divine nature contains also the eternal life. And Peter does not say that the divine nature will only be enjoyed in the future. By believing in the promises we become ”partakers of the divine nature. It is only through this divine nature that we have the power to escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. And this escaping must be done in the church age.In your Galatians passage sowing to the Spirit would correspond closely to escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust. We escape by the Holy Spirit. We escape by the divine nature. Both the Holy Spirit and the divine nature are the sphere and realm of eternal life.Secondly, the everlasting kingdom of our Jesus Christ (or Y’shua if you prefer) is in the church age too, and continues through the millennial age and on into eternity. So those who are faithfully growing in the foretaste of the kingdom of Christ today, will have a rich entrance into the reward of a fuller taste of the kingdom of Christ in the future.It is clear that this kingdom of Christ is something that the believers have been transferred into upon receiving the gospel:”Giving thanks to the Father . Who delivered us out of the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love . ” (See Col. 1:12,13)”For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Rom. 14:17)”For the kingdom of God is not in speech but in power” (1 Cor. 4:20)These and many other verses show that the kingdom of Christ and of God is to be experienced as a foretaste today. Those disciplined to live a kingdom life will enjoy the reward of a fuller enjoyment of the kingdom of Christ in the millennial age. They, having matured in life, will have a rich entrance into the manifestation of the kingdom.Today the kingdom is somewhat hidden. In the future that which is hidden will be manifested to the world. And its enjoyment is a reward to those who in the church age were faithful to live in the foretaste of the kingdom.The passage from 2 Peter means that eternal life has filled up your personality. Instead of you enjoying life only in a limited way this life has grown and saturated your whole personality. So your entrance is rich into the reward of the millennial kingdom.Those who spent their Christian lives sowing to the flesh will not have a rich entrance. Some will be punished and sent to the outer darkness for 1,000 years to mature in that life. At the end of that millennial kingdom period all are matured and enjoy the gift of the eternal life in the new heaven and new earth discribed in Revelation 21 and 22. This eternal age follows the 1,000 year age of the millennial reward given to the believers who cooperated by sowing unto the Spirit.I will cut the length of this post here. I want to go back and read the rest of your comments.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-23-2005 10:21 AM

Truthlover, Yes we can. All these verses are from Paul’s letters.”When Christ our life is manifested . “ (Col. 3:4).Christ being ours is our divine and eternal life.”The last Adam became a life giving Spirit” (1 Cor. 15:45)Having Christ, having the Holy Spirit, eternal life is being supplied to us.”For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed me . ” (Rom. 8:2)Within the Person of Christ Jesus is the realm of the law of eternal life freeing Paul from his experience in the previous chapter 7. Such freeing is taking place in the church age.” . that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body” (2 Cor. 4:10)The divine and eternal life of Jesus, in the church age, was being manifested in the suffering bodies of the apostles.The association of eternal life with Christ is a absolute in Paul’s writings as it is in John’s. I think that this is a characteristic of the New Testament and not of John solely.In speaking about regeneration Paul says ”the spirit is life because of righteousness” (Rom. 8:10).That is that the human spirit of man who is justified becomes the eternal life. Since the Lord Jesus is with the human spirit of the born again person, the eternal life is with his spirit.”The Lord be with your spirit” (2 Tim. 4:22)The Spirit which is the Spirit of life is joined with the human spirit in the new birth to create ”one spirit”. That is one united and mingled human spirit / Holy Spirit blending:”He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit” (1 Cor .6:17)Since the Lord is our righteousness, for Him to be with our spirit is for our spirit to be eternal life because of righteousness:”the spirit is life because of righteousness” (Rom. 8:10).The apostles suffer and die daily so that eternal life might work in the Christians in the church in Corinth:”So then death operates in us but life in you” (2 Cor. 4:12)And this eternal life which is operating in the Corinthians is none other than Jesus Christ Himself:”Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?” (2 Cor. 13:5)The connection between the ZOE life of God and Jesus’ person is as one in Paul’s letters as it is in John’s writings. This is the New Testament. Each brother had his portion of the ministry of the New Testament. They were not at odds with one another. They were both preaching and ministering the same thing. They may have used different expressions. But the net result is the same. Christ is the life of God, the eternal life. And He is to be enjoyed today as well as in the future. Yes John does. But the apostle Paul ALSO tells the Philippians that they should hold forth ”the word of life”:”Holding forth the word of life, so that I may have a boast in the day of Christ that I did not run in vain nor labor in vain” (Phil. 2:16) Paul certainly teaches the same thing albiet with different words:” . that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body” (2 Cor. 4:10)” . even now Christ will be magnified in my body whether through life or through death. For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain.” (Phil. 1:20,21)”The things which you have also learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things; and the God of peace will be with you” (Phil. 4:9)”And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction with joy of the Holy Spirit, So that you became a pattern . ” (1 Thess. 1:6,7)Here the example of the apostles living in the realm of eternal life was seen and practiced by the Thessalonians who in turn became a pattern for others to follow.And finally Paul reminds his junior co-worker Timothy that he, Paul, manifested to Timothy the living of this life. And Timothy should pass this testimony on to others.”And the things which you have heard from me through many witnesses, these commit to faithful men, who will be competent to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2)Paul is not talking about doctrines alone. He is talking about his entire manner of life. He lived in the sphere and realm of Christ the eternal life. What he ministered was what he was and what he lived. He tells Timothy to live likewise and teach other men also who themselves can do the same.This every bit the same as John saying that the apostles report to the believers the eternal life which was with the Father. And you and I should do the same. I have shown you above that Paul also speaks that way. And besides, even if John alone spoke that way (which he does not) it is still the unshakable truth of the gospel of God.You can’t be suggesting that if only John spoke that way then we needn’t believe or pay attention. Grossly overstated as to be entirely false.Peter exhorts couples in the church life to be heirs together of the grace of life:”Husbands, in like manner dwell together with them according to knowledge, as with the weaker, female vessel, assigning honor to them as also fellow heirs of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered” (1 Peter 3:7)Furthermore since the grace is of life. To grow in grace is to grow in the eternal life in the church age. Which thing Peter exhorts us to do:”But grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Pet. 3:18)
Jesus Christ is the life. And the grace of Christ is ”the grace of life (1 Peter 3:7) I agree. But Paul and Peter spoke the same things. I agree here too. But Paul was in battle against philosophies too. You can see that clearly in Colossians. And in that book he writes that Christ is our life (Col. 3:4).It is not wise for you to fall prey to the idea of creating a dichotomy of Paul verses John. This is not wise at all. The eternal life is in the believers from the moment they are born of God.That is why I spoke of the growth and the saturation of our beingswith this life. And that concept you opposed.As a substitute you have this strange idea that the Christ the believers have today is not the eternal life. Since when did Christ cease to be the eternal life?What we have has not yet grown to the point of swallowing up all of our mortality. But it will:” . that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life” (2 Cor. 5:4)We today have a foretaste, a pledge, a sealing, an earnest of what we will have a much fuller and complete taste of in the future - eternal life. The distinction between Paul’s mininstry and John’s is that to their professions. Paul was a making tents. John was mending nets. John’s ministry is a mending ministry.When the damage was done to the gospel in the first century John in his old age came to recover and repair like one mending torn nets. His is a mending ministry. So his emphasis has this kind of taste. He returns to the bottom line. But he does not deviate from the ministry of Paul.Actually there is only one New Testament ministry. And both Paul and John took part in it.You want to make “eternal life” only a matter of everlasting duration. And this is only one aspect of eternal life.The word “eternal” denotes not only duration of time, which is everlasting, without endm but also the quality, which is absolutely perfect and complete, without shortage or defect. Such an expression emphasizes the eternal nature of the divine life, the life of the eternal God. This life is also eternal with respect to its sphere. It denotes time, space, and quality.As to the element of time, this life will last forever. You wrongly want to restrict “eternal life” to this everlasting aspect. But “eternal life” as to space is vast, unlimited. As to quality, eternal life is perfect and complete, without defect or shortage. The sphere or field of eternal life encompasses the whole universe. It covers the entire field of life.The very history of the church testifies that this eternal life is not only everlasting. It is indestructible and able to overcome any obstacle. It branches over every barrier and cannot be stopped by suffering or persecution.This eternal life was manifested in the apostles and in the martyrs and down through church history withstanding attacts from every side.To restrict eternal life to only the aspect of “everlasting” and relegate it only to the future is no doubt a leavening of the pure word of the gospel.It is also foolish for you to try to draw some kind of wedge between the revelation of John and that of Paul.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-23-2005 03:22 PM

I don't agree that mentioning eternal life as reward is verses mentioning living eternal life today. But either way you really have no case to contradict John on ANY grounds.The fact of the matter is that whether you agree with Paul or not, the apostle John says that the eternal life is Christ. Whatever Paul wrote, whenever Paul wrote, or whatever phrasing Paul wrote does not change this fact. So it really doesn't matter if you can't see him saying the same thing.Even if Paul said nothing and did not write 13 books of the New Testament as he did, what John taught is not nullified - the Son is the eternal life. That does not change.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-23-2005 06:33 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-23-2005 06:33 PM

John and Paul both warn of future consquences for succeeding or failing to practice living in the Holy Spirit.Here is Paul:"Do not be deceived: God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.

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For he who sows unto his own flesh will reap corruption of the flesh, but he who sows unto the Spirit will of the Spirit reap eternal life" (Gal. 6:7,8)Here is John:"And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming." (1 John 2:28)Paul speaks of sowing to the Spirit.
John speaks of abiding in Him.Paul speaks of reaping corruption.
John speaks of being "put to shame"Here it is not a matter of feeling ashamed. It has nothing to do with the believer's feeling. If he has not practiced to abide in the Lord, when Christ comes, he will be "put to shame from Him"This being put to shame from Christ is temporary for the Christian. It does not effect their eternal redemption.Paul says that God is not mocked. John says that such a disobedient one will be put to shame.There is this difference. Reaping corruption is reaping the characteristics of the fallen flesh. This occurs before the Lord returns.Being put to shame from the Lord is the reward for thus reaping corruption. When He comes instead of the maturity of life coming from a life of abiding in the Lord, the believers has only the corruption that he has reaped by sowing to the flesh. His reward is to be put to shame from the Lord.Someone may point out that Paul explicitly mentions reaping eternal life and John does not.By way of strong implication John mentions eternal life also in the following verses to 1 John 2:28. For example he goes on to say "Behold what manner of love the Father has given us, that we should be called the children of God; and we are ...and it has not yet been manifested what we will be. We know that when He is manifested, we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is." (See 3:1,2)Now are we the children of God with the life of God. But when He is manifested if we have practiced to abide in Him we will be like Him. it has not yet appeared what this will be. But it will be glorious. This is none other that a fuller enjoyment of the eternal life we have today as Christians.We are the children of the eternal God. We shall be like His Son if we abide in this life faithfully today. We have eternal life (1 John 5:12). We will be rewarded with a fuller enjoyment of eternal life when He is manifested. But we should abide in Him so that we have boldness before Him.There is no reason to draw a false dichotomy with John on one side and Paul on the other.The Apostle John says that the life is eternal life - " ...God gave to us eternal life and THIS LIFE is in His Son. He who has the Son has the LIFE [i.e. eternal life]" (1 John 5:12)Therefore when the Apostle Paul speaks of LIFE (ZOE LIFE) he is speaking of eternal life - i.e. "shall reap eternal life" and "... you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end, eternal life" and "the spirit is life because of righteousness".How can Paul speak of eternal life today in experience and eternal life as the issue and reward of a spiritual living?It is because the Christian today has a foretaste of more to come. He has a pledge of what is to come. He has a earnest of what is to come. He has an appetizer of the fuller course to come in the future.
What he enjoys today, and to what he should be attentive to, he will enjoy in a fuller way when Christ comes back to reward or discipline His servants." ... you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance ..." (Eph. 1:13,14)The Spirit is the "Spirit of life" (Rom. 8:2). And the Spirit is also eternal - "the eternal Spirit" (Heb. 9:14). Therefore the eternal Spirit as our pledge is the eternal life.Other verses show that the Spirit today is the earnest or "downpayment" of the eternal life to come in the future:"He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge" (2 Cor. 1:22)"Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a pledge" (2 Cor. 5:5)This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-24-2005 08:57 AM

Truthlover, I thought that you were highlighting a difference you perceived in that John’s concept eternal life is in the present but Paul’s is always future.Am I correct that you were pointing out this difference between John’s usage and Paul’s usage of the phrase “eternal life?” I am not defending Reform theology or dancing around anything. I am not terribly impressed with your cavalier dismissal of a number of verses. I would be a little more impressed if you dealt with them one by one to point out my error. You have not done that. However, when you do get down to examining the text carefully that gets both my respect and attention a great deal more. Any wholesale “I just dismiss all these verses” is a very weak reply to me.And there is nothing silly about Paul’s testimony or teaching concerning the matter. But I want to get on to your responses which have some substance.Concerning Galatians 6:7-9 you write: That is not exactly what I said Truthlover. I have no problem in your concept that Paul used reap eternal life to refer to the time following the second coming of Christ. I have a problem with you saying that he exclusively and only gives this meaning to eternal life.I do take Galatians 6:7-9 on the positive side, as meaning the reward of the Lord’s coming manifestation of His kingdom.Reaping corruption, I said, was something regarding this life before Christ’s second coming. It essentially means dying in gross spiritual immaturity or else being in that state alive when Jesus comes.I don’t think that the Lord Jesus rewards anyone with corruption in the second coming. He is incorruptible. Corruption is the fruit reaped in the Christian’s own life if he or she will not sow to the Spirit but sows to the flesh.The reward of Christ is either varying levels of glory and enjoyment in the millennial kingdom or varying levels of discipline or punishment durng the same time. If we sow to the flesh we will reap corruption from the fallen nature and be punished during the millennial kingdom. If we sow to the Spirit we will enjoy a fuller measure of eternal life in the kingdom of 1,000 years.After the 1,000 years all the disciplined and punished servants have been matured and no believers any longer sow to the flesh or reap corruption. All, after the millennium, enjoy the fullest measure of eternal life in the New Jerusalem. I hope my clarification above shows that I do not take the passage exactly as you characterize me as having taken it. If you now understand more accurately how I interpret Galatians 6:7-9 I will go on to comment on Gal. 5:19-21 briefly.Galatians 5:19-21, as you know, has two other verses which parallel its teaching. That is the teaching of Christians not given the inheritance of the kingdom of God. The three sister verses are:Gal.5:19-21; 1 Cor. 6:9; Eph. 5:5Paul warns believers, and re-warns believers, and re-re-warns believers that if they practice such things they will not inherit the kingdom of God.These Christians have eternal redemption and will be in the new heaven and the new earth. But some of the Lord’s servants will be cast into the outer darkness during the millennial kingdom. They will be punished. I don’t know how long. But it cannot be much more than the duration of the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. Perhaps it may be some portion of that depending on different the situation of the disciplined Christian.But to not inherit the kingdom of God in these verses means to not enjoy the reward of the millennial kingdom. That 1,000 year period is the manifestation of the reality of the kingdom in which the Christians are called to live in today.There is a phase of the kingdom which is the reality. It is hidden to the eyes of the world but it has its reality. We live a life of discipline under the King’s rule in the church age. If we do then we will be rewarded with the kingdom in the way of manifestation. The hidden kingdom will then be openly manifested to the world. They will see that we are indeed co-kings with Christ because we have overcome and been victorious in the reality stage during the age of the church.To not inhereit the kingdom of God for Christians eternally saved means to not be rewarded during the millennium but to be punished instead.Now concerning the growth of the kingdom life. I think that it is appropriate to see growth of the kingdom by a number of the parables given by Christ. For example Mark 4:26-29:”And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth, And he sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthenes - how, he does not know. The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then the full grain in the ear. But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come” (Mark 4:26-29)Here the kingdom of God is seen in five stages in the parable:
1. The seed sprouts and lengthens.
2. The blade appears.
3. The ear appears.
4. The full grain in the ear appears.
5. The fruit ripens and is harvested.At each stage of growth it is still the kingdom of God. This parables definitely teaches that the kingdom of God is a matter of the growth, development, and maturity of life.The parable of the four results of the word of the kingdom in Matthew 13:1-23 and Mark 4:1-20 is similar. The most positive level of the growth of the kingdom seed is that it will produce fruit thirtyfold or sixtyfold or a hundredfold (Matt. 13:8).This parable therefore proves that the kingdom within is can be stunted and frustrated in its growth or can yield varying levels of positive fruit to the Lord Who sowed the word of the kingdom into people. I would ask you not to dismiss verses so easily. We should be thankful that crucial truths in the Bible are stated often in many ways in many places.Now briefly, because this is a discussion forum and not a space to write a book chapter - The overcomers in Sardis are rewarded during the millennial kingdom as I discribed before.In fact all of the statements about reward given to the overcomers are related to the millennial kingdom. They are not rewards related to eternity. They are phrased relating to dispensational reward or dispensational punishment. These will be dispensed during the 1,000 year millennial kingdom (Rev. 20) prior to the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth with the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21,22). The troubles arise on two fronts related to the battles between Arminian theology and Calvinist theology.1.) Calvinists theology tries to show that the Lord’s servants who are punished are in fact false believers who were never redeemed.
2.) Arminian theology tries to show from the same verses that a Christian can lose their salvation.What I am saying to you is neither of these two assumptions. I am teaching that a Christian who is indeed a true believer can be dispensationally punished during the age immediately following the second coming of Christ. Such a punishment of not inheriting the manifestation of the kingdom of God is temporary. It cannot last more than 1,000 years. When one is born of God he cannot be unborn of God. My son is my son regardless of what he does. He has my life in him. Now we may not be on very good terms for a season. But he is still my son.It is the same with the sons of God. God can beget sons and yet still have a very wide range of scope in order to perfect them. He can discipline them in many different ways as a wise Father. All such discipline is not the taking away of the gift of eternal redemption. The problem with many Christians is that whenever they see a verse on the discipline of believers they assume that this could only mean a loss of eternal salvation.With them they seem no to notice Revelation chapter 20 of the millennial kingdom preceeds the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth with the New Jerusalem. The millennial kingdom age is set up as an incentive for those who have been saved by grace to cooperate to mature in life. It is not hard to understand if you realize that “saved” can be taken to mean more than escape from perdition. If one’s personality is still so natural and fleshly, doesn’t he need to be saved from his temper, his lust, his disposition, his immaturity?James is addressing this kind of being saved out of the old way of living even though one is saved forever by his faith in Jesus. It is not hard when we consider not only man’s need by God’s need. From the standpoint of only our need, we think we need to be saved from eternal perdition. And of course we do. But God is not happey to have many spiritual babies who are saved from the lake of fire but still live out the old life in the flesh. His purpose calls for us not only being saved from perdition but being saved to express Christ in our daily living.Unless we think that all we need to be saved from perdition, the New Testament takes a great deal of time to point out in many ways that God needs our living to be saved into expressing Christ.Those who cooperate with this being brought on to maturity will be rewarded. Those who do not will be disciplined by the wise Father.In different ways Paul, James, John, and Peter address this deeper salvation of maturing into a living which expresses Jesus Christ.
Being born again is simply not an end in itself. Just like being born in a natural sense is for the continued growth and maturity of human life, so the new birth as a gift is for the growth of the divine life within man unto maturity.That is all I can write this evening.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-26-2005 02:09 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-26-2005 02:19 AM

It’s not important. I think we are in sync now. I noticed the additional word “eternal” is added in two or three notable cases upon which reward is being spoken of. I see your point in that.But my point is that John shows that “life” and “eternal life” are interchangeable terms in verses like John 3:36 and First John 5:12. If John uses ”eternal life” and ”life” interchangeable, why should I consider that Paul does not or would not?And here is an instance where Paul uses the phrase ”eternal
life” and he obviously is not talking about reward but rather ” gift:””For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 6:23)This Pauline verse is definitely not ”eternal life " as reward but as gift. When John uses the term in First John 5:12 it IS in the possession of the disciples:” . God gave to us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; He who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.” As long as the disciples have the Son they have the eternal life. It is impossible for the disciples to have the Son but not have the eternal life at the same time.Now I admit that certain verses seem to contradict that when we get the flavor of “eternal life” as something awaiting us in the future. But the Lord said that He came that we may not only have life but have it abundantly - John 10:10. This kind of teaching shows that our enjoyment of eternal life can deepen and encrease unto greater and greater abundance. What we foretaste now of eternal life we can be rewarded with a fuller taste in the fuller. Okay. Initially they did not. Then I recently included Romans 6:23 - ”the gift of God is eternal life”.I think you must have known that that verses existed if you beforehand searched out all of the Pauline passages explicitly mentioning ”eternal life”. It forbids any assumption that explicit use of ”eternal life” is used by Paul only in the sense of reward.However, as I said before, I think John and Paul use “life” and “eternal life” interchangeably. This is not true of Romans 6:23. In that instance I agree with you. In Gal. 6:7-9 I agree with your interpretation. I would caution you not to stretch that instance to cover every instance written by Paul. I think that that is a perfectly legitimate request. It should be looked into. There are many ways I could use to prove this. But for today I would draw your attention to one passage in particular - First Timothy 2:10-13:”Therefore I endure all things for sake of the chosen ones, that they themselves also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

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Faithful is the word: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him.

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If we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us;

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If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”This is a passage to Christians for whom the matter of eternal redemption has been settled. This is also a passage about endurance and the reward for it. That reward being to reign with Christ as in Revelation 20:4,6.If like faithful Paul, endure, we will reign with Christ. Reigning necessarily implies the kingdom of God. However if we deny the Lord, even though we are redeemed Christians He will deny us the reward to reign with Him.Denying the Lord would come about because the Christian has turned faithless. No one who is faithful and enduring will deny the Lord Jesus. But one who becomes faithless may do so.Verse 13 says that if we are faithless (i.e. denying the Lord), He, however, remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. I take this to mean that though He deny us the reward to reign with Him, He cannot deny that He has imparted His Spirit and His life into us. He cannot deny Himself. The faithless one who did not endure, will still have the eternal life.Now this is the plain teaching as I see it. Many parables substantiate this interpretation:In Matthew 25:14-30 the first faithful servant is rewarded to be set over many things. He was faithful over a few and is reward to be set over many things after the Lord comes back. The second servant also is rewarded to be set over many things. To the first and second servant the Lord says “Well, done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful over a few things; I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master” (13:21,23)Then the third unfaithful servant comes along. He hid his master’s talent fearing that the master was too strict and the demand too heavy. He is not rewarded. The slothful slave’s conversation with the Master goes like this:” . Master, I knew about you, that you are a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow. And I was afraid and went off and hid your talent in theearth; behold, you have what is yours.

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And his master answered and said to him, Evil and slothful slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I did not winnow, therefore you should have deposited my money with the money changers; and when I came, I would have recovered what is mine with interest. Take away the talent from him and give it to him who has ten talents.

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For to every one who has, more shall be given, and he shall abound; but from him who does not have, even that which he has shall betaken away from him.

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And cast out the useless slave into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.”Now before I go on let me first say that I don’t have space to comment exhaustively on every detail of this parable. I am only highlighting certain aspects of it.Secondly, this parable shows one aspect of our relationship with Christ the Lord, not the one and only aspect. In this aspect the Lord Jesus is a strict business man investing His riches in His servants and expecting to make a profit. Yes the Lord is the loving Savior. But this parable is not about that. It is about His investing in His servants to obtain something for His coming kingdom.The slothful slave was not faithful and was cast into outer darkness. If you say that he was not a true Christian, this does not make sense. He is every bit the same as the other two servants. Only he is not faithful.If on the other hand you say that he is a true Christian and the outer darkness into which he is cast is eternal punishment, then you can throw the gospel of grace out of the window entirely. Because this would prove that one is eternally saved from damnation because of the work he does for the Lord. This flies in the face of too much of the New Testament - (John 3:16; Eph. 2:8; Titus 3:5) - whosever believes has eternal life; salvation is the gift of God; salvation is not of works of righteousness which we have done. And many many other verses could reinforce that by grace we are saved through faith.So then I submit that the outer darkness is not perdition but the loss of the reward plus punishment to Christians. And it is temporary in nature because though the servant is faithless Christ cannot deny Himself (2 Tim. 2:10-13).I definitely think that we should understand Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:3-5, and 1 Cor 6:9,10 in this light. To not inherit the kingdom of God is to fare as the slothul servant of the Lord or the believer of the Lord who does not endure but becomes faithless to deny the Lord. The kingdom of God does indeed extend into eternity. But this portion of it during the 1,000 years is all about reward and not gift.It is like this the wise Father saves many people by grace as a gift. He wants them to grow in that divine life that they have received. He knows that some children will cooperate to grow and some children will be complacent that they need not grow. Since they are saved they can still foolishly enjoy the world and the old life.
As an incentive for the saved to cooperate to be conformed to the image of the Son of God, He establishes a period of reward and discipline BEFORE the eternal age comes. That is what Revelation 20 is about. Six times it says that the faithful saints will reign with Christ for 1,000 years.So this reward is spoken of by Paul as the reward of eternal life. He means a fuller and richer enjoyment of the eternal life which we are to take heed to today.Since eternal blessing is the gift in grace and not of works, the servants punished in the outer darkness must be perfected during that time. This should be considered like a naughty student having to attend summer school to make up lessons he should have learned during the regular semester.Eventually, God has a way to make those who do not care care. All will be matured and perfected by the time of the end of the millennial kingdom. And the reign of Christ continues into the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth with the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22 in which all the saved participate. ”If we are faithless, He remains faithful, He cannot deny Himself.”I will continue commenting on the rest of your replies in another post.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-27-2005 03:15 PM

Paul’s revelation was extensive. It was more than he could hardly bare. God had to give him a thorn in the flesh to humble him to not be exalted by the abundance of revelation.Both Revelation and Philppians mention ”the book of life” (Rev. 20:12 compare Phil. 4:3)And Paul’s perception into Daniel’s prophecy was inspired as we can see in his writings to the church of the Thessalonians. And in First Corinthians 15 he elaborates on a period in which all of Christ’s enemies must be put under His feet until He delivers up the kingdom to His Father. So I believe that Paul was not ignorant of the millennial reign. Sure it is truthlover. Compare Revelation chapter 14. You have firstfruits and you have harvest. And it is speaking of the saved.I might say that it is more of a corporate growth in the Mark passage than the growth in a particular individual. But it is still growth within a corporate group of people down through the church age.But if you don’t think the parable is appropriate how about the plain teaching of Second Corinthians 3:17,18?“And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit” (2 Cor. 3:17,18)This transformation is from one degree of glory to another to another - successively by degress until conformation to the image of the Lord. This transformation is carried out by the Lord Spirit. And it is the Spirit who gives life (2 Cor. 3:6). He is the last Adam who became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) to transform us into the image of Christ.Degrees of expression, i.e. expressing the Lord Jesus, are degrees of the growth of the eternal life within the beleivers. If behooves them to turn theuir hearts to the Lord and log more and more time beholding Him and reflecting Him for this organic transformation by the Spirit of life.In different words you have the same matter as in the Markian parable of the growing kingdom seed. Splendid Truthlover. Hold on to that because many brothers and sisters really don’t see that very well in today’s degraded Christianity. I agree with you that “faith only” is not the bases of the reward of the kingdom - which reward Paul sometimes refers to as ”eternal life”This He received from the Lord Jesus Himself who also spoke of repaying every man.”For the Son of Man is to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will repay each man according to his doings” (Matt. 16:27)”Behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me to render to each one as his work is” (Rev. 22:12)It is not always easy to understand the Bible. When I disciple young believers I first give them a firm foundation in Christ as our eternal security. We who believe into Him will never perish. Then we have to go on from the milk of the word to the more solid food.And that more solid food is that though our past sins have been forgiven and forgotten by God, we must account to Him at His judgment seat. We must account to Him what we did with our new life in Christ from the time we were saved.It is here that even the merciful can obtain mercy for mercy triumphs over judgment.”Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy” (Matt. 5:7)As strict as the Lord is as the King of the kingdom, He still will show mercy with those who have themselves been merciful.In the kingdom we should be strict with ourselves and accomondating towards others. But woe to us Christians if we are easy on ourselves but exacting and unforgiving with others. As we have judged then, He also will judge us. ”If perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead” (Phil. 3:11 Recovery Version - See The Holy Bible Recovery Version)This term ”out-resurrection” means the outstanding resurrection, the extra-resurrection, which will be a prize to the overcoming saints. All believers who are dead in Christ will participate in the resurrection from the dead at the Lord’s coming back (1 Thes, 4:16; 1 Cor. 15:52). But the overcoming saints will enjoy an extra, outstanding portion of that resurrection.To arrive at the out-resurrection indicates that our entire being has been gradually and continually resurrected. God first resurrected our deadened spirit (Eph. 2:5-6); then from our spirit He proceeds to resurrect our soul (Rom. 8:6) and our mortal body (Rom. 8:11), until our entire being - spirit, soul, and body - is fully resurrected out of our old being by and with His life.This is a process in life through which we must pass and a race that we must run until we arrive at the out-resurrection as the prize.Hence, the out-resurrection should be the goal and distination of our Christian life. We can reach this goal only by being conformed to thedeath of Christ (Phil. 3:10), by living a crucified life. In the death of Christ we are processed in resurrection from the old creation to the new.Refering back to the three servants - the two rewareded ones, we might say were in the out-resurrection (if it be that they died in Christ). And the disciplined one was not in this outstanding resurrection of reward. He needs further growth and discipline during the time in which it would be normal for the servants to be enjoying the kingdom reward.What I have just said is by way of application. I don’t mean that anything in the parable tells us whether the slaves of the Lord there are living or resurrected to live when He comes. Galatians is spoken to Christians who cannot perish for eternity. I would reject any teaching which teaches that once one has believed into the Lord, been redeemed and regenerated, will perish forever afterwards for anything whatsoever.So, God not being mocked, is the tough lesson needed to be learned by millions of slothul and world loving believers. The lesson is not an eternal one. If you think it is then we have a difference of belief which we will not resolve in many discussions. I simply reject that one redeemed by Christ can perish forever.On the other hand God is a Judge. Just like the worldly judges have a considerable latitude in disciplines that they can administer, why should we think that God the judge of all the earth, would have His hands tied?The bottom line as far as I am concerned is this: God our wise Father and Judge of all the earth, can save people for eternity and yet still have plenty of latitude to reward or discipline His children for their perfection.In every instance where you can point out the fact of God dealing negatively with His redeemed people after the second coming of Christ, the assumption of eternal punishment is just that, an assumption. I disagree. There may not be the mention of 1,000 years per se. That is all.Many Christians re-hash again and again and again the matter of “How do we get saved?” This is by far the most frequently talked about topic in Bible studies. It seems that some believers spend their whole lives arguing this one thing - “How do we get SAVED?”You can believe what you would like to believe. The matter of Christ Himself as my eternal security is settled long ago. I have moved on from there. If you have a salvation and eternal life by works, that is your business. But I won’t go along with you on it. Nor will I expend too much time to change your view.If that is the gospel you believe, that is between you and the Lord Jesus. I still love you as a brother in Christ if you are truly a brother in the Lord.Having said that. I think I will probably let you and IANO continue hashing out what you were talking about.Agape.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-27-2005 04:24 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-27-2005 04:25 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-27-2005 04:28 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-27-2005 04:31 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-27-2005 04:32 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-27-2005 04:33 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-27-2005 04:35 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-27-2005 04:36 PM

Take care Truthlover,Thanks for the fellowship.
That was probably my last post on the thread.