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Author | Topic: evolutionary chain | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
arachnophilia has posted a diagram of the bone structure, but you have to adjust the realitive size to the relative size of the different species {eohippus 12-14" compared to horse 5-6ft at the shoulder)
But, this doesn't address the soft tissue changes (muscles & tendons can be approximated from bone attachment points and some assumed anatomy correlations), and it doesn't do so well on things like the digital cushion at the base of the hoof and how it develops into a secondary pump mechanism. The whole mechanism of standing on the tip of a toe is substantially different behavior from standing on the toe pads and requires a {modified\changed\evolved} structure to support it. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1343 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
arachnophilia has posted a diagram of the bone structure i'm sure i could go textbook hunting and find a nicer diagram with more species -- actually, there might be one in that book i recommended christian. christian, do you still have that book from the library? if so, does it go into any detail about horse evolution?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I'm interested in the foot blood pumping mechanism, it is obviously a feature that enables the leg to grow longer and still have adequate blood supply. Perhaps a clue in the relative sizes of the ancestor species (a sudden increase in size?)? foot arrangement? how well hooves fossilize as opposed to bone?
how big was merychippus?http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/...ci/vertpaleo/fhc/merychippus.htm ah. found some info:http://www.geocities.com/.../Park/7841/horse_evol/trans.html the drawings are to scale unfortunately the skeletons were not the last seems to be the legs to scale (doesn't say) with the same pictures as yours. looks like merychippus is a big step eh? we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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Christian Member (Idle past 6255 days) Posts: 157 Joined: |
feel free to look up the species named in something that's not a webpage. that's a good idea. I'll look them up in the vertebrate palentology book you recommended I read.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1343 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
feel free to look up the species named in something that's not a webpage. that's a good idea. I'll look them up in the vertebrate palentology book you recommended I read. well, i just wanted you to look at the pictures, but i admire your effort to read it. did you buy it, or just keep renewing it from the library? i don't recall if it goes into horse evolution in specific, though i'm sure you could find whole books on that. i used the part on bird evolution for a art project, thought it was one of many resources, and not my primary one. it's far too general, really.
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Christian Member (Idle past 6255 days) Posts: 157 Joined: |
actually, there might be one in that book i recommended christian.
That's what I was thinking. (posted before I read this)
christian, do you still have that book from the library? if so, does it go into any detail about horse evolution?
I still have the book. I didn't have to check it out of the library since my husband already had a copy. It has some stuff about horse evolution. I need to look at it again. Been kind of out of it lately with being sick and then getting ready for Christmas. I'm looking at it now, it has that same picture that you posted, or something very similar, with the horses hooves. I'm just reading it a bit as I'm working on this post. Here's an interesting quote:
Early work suggested that horses constituted a single assemblage that progressed relatively steadily from the small sized Hyracotherium (Eohippus), with low-crowned teeth and four toes on the front feet and three on the rear, to the modern genus Equus, which has high-crowned teeth and whose manus and pes are reduced to a single toe. Subsequent research has demonstrated a much more complex radiation, with many divergent lineages of browsers and grazers overlapping one another in time. Don't know whether that contradicts your idea of things or not, RAZD, but thought it was interesting. Anyway, I'll read this section thouroughly (doesn't look very long, so might not have any more explicit information that what I already have, but a good place to start). Then I'll let you guys know what I think. Have a nice day and Merry Christmas.
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Christian Member (Idle past 6255 days) Posts: 157 Joined: |
i don't recall if it goes into horse evolution in specific, though i'm sure you could find whole books on that. i used the part on bird evolution for a art project, thought it was one of many resources, and not my primary one. it's far too general, really Yeah, it seems pretty general. I looked on amazon for some books specifically on horse evolution and didn't come up with much. What they had was pretty expensive. Maybe I'll check the library.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1343 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
I still have the book. I didn't have to check it out of the library since my husband already had a copy. oh, that's handy. he just happened to have one laying around?
It has some stuff about horse evolution. I need to look at it again. Been kind of out of it lately with being sick and then getting ready for Christmas. i know the feeling. i've been out spending all my money on other people.
I'm looking at it now, it has that same picture that you posted, or something very similar, with the horses hooves. does it have more than four items? i know the book i checked out bird evolution had an entire series of dino-to-bird hips that spanned several million years and at least 7 distinct genuses of dinos, as well as modern birds. even that's leaving a lot out, but you it gives the general picture.
quote: well, that's kind of the old debate point. people expect evolution to go in a straight line, for whatever reason. it doesn't. it branches, sometimes into very, very complex cladograms. not all variations and species survive. had we all the evidence (realistically impossible) we could easily trace the exact route of horse lineage. realistically, we end up comparing species and noting commonalities, extrapolating how recent each is to their common ancestor. thus the term "missing link." it's like we were to have me, and my uncle, but not my grandfather. we could figure out that my grandfather existed, even without him specifically.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1343 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Maybe I'll check the library. if it's a reasonable college library it should have a section of vertebrate paleontology. that'd be a good section to browse in general. (bio too, i'm just a childhood paleonut.)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Subsequent research has demonstrated a much more complex radiation, with many divergent lineages of browsers and grazers overlapping one another in time. Don't know whether that contradicts your idea of things or not, RAZD, Not really, as this is common in unraveling lineages. It shows we do have to be careful about making conclusions of which animals are in the direct lineage between eohippus and modern horse, but we still know that the general development went from a to b. To make it more confusing still, what we may find is that some fossils represent a "cousin" branch where we don't have a common ancestor sample, and this "cousin" species may have both some features that are from the (missing) common ancestor (and thus relate to the direct line of development) and other features that are unique to the "cousin" species (and thus don't relate to the direct line). we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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Christian Member (Idle past 6255 days) Posts: 157 Joined: |
I just wanted to let you guys know that I'm not going to spend as much time here as I was (haven't been on lately because of Christmas and a different schedule than usual). I've decided that I want to read through the Bible since I've never actually read through it. I think the best way to do that is to set aside time each day. I was using "rest time" as my computer time. But I think that now it will be my Bible reading time. We'll see how it goes. Maybe I'll still be on once a week, maybe Thursdays, but not tomorrow. Anyway, this doesn't mean that I've stopped researching material about evolution. I'm still reading "Ancient Earth, Ancient Skies" and the paleontology book. I'm also reading "What Evolution Is" by Ernst Mayr and "The Origen of Species" by Darwin himself. Of course there are many others as well (some by creationist Authors and some about other things entirely) so I'm not going through any of them very quickly. If anyone comes up with other books they think will be helpful to me, please let me know, because I will be checking in peroidically. Thanks, Happy New Year.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
enjoy your quest.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Happy reading, Christian. You might consider skipping Numbers and the first half of Joshua, though.
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Christian Member (Idle past 6255 days) Posts: 157 Joined: |
I just clicked reply and then realized how completely off-topic we are with this. Anyway Thanks, but I think I'll read all of it. So far I've written down about 15 pages of questions. I'm not going to worry about the answers yet.
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Christian Member (Idle past 6255 days) Posts: 157 Joined: |
Here's something someone said about horse evolution on another forum. I, of course, loved it. But I am smart enough to know you people probably have a rebuttal so here's what was said:
Textbooks have been lying to our children for years. Trust me, I have fought this battle many times. They tell children modern horse came from a four toed horse(Silver Burder, Earth Science 1987 pg 361). What they don't tell kids is the original horse, the eohippus has 18 pairs ofribs, the mesohippus has 15 pairs of ribs, mirohippus has 19 pairs of ribs, modern horse is back to 18. (Prentis Hall Life Science 1991, page 500.) Going up and down with the rib count? Come on. thats not evolution. Here is the problem with the horse evolution:1. Made up by Othniel C. Marsh in 1874 from animal fossils he picked up scattered across the world, not from the same location. (He arranged them in the order he thought it happened) 2. Modern horses are found in layers with and lower than anciect horses. 3. The "ancient horse" is not a horse at all, it's a hyrax still alive in South America today. Ribs toes and teeth are different. The Tulsa Zoo took out their horse evolution display because of it's inaccuracies. So I'd like to hear your comments on that. Also, I'm still looking for more detailed information on horse evolution,if anyone knows of any sources. Thanks.
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