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Author Topic:   evolutionary chain
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 166 of 204 (269504)
12-14-2005 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Christian
12-14-2005 5:29 PM


Re: Pelycodus ...Horse ...Elephant?
arachnophilia has posted a diagram of the bone structure, but you have to adjust the realitive size to the relative size of the different species {eohippus 12-14" compared to horse 5-6ft at the shoulder)
But, this doesn't address the soft tissue changes (muscles & tendons can be approximated from bone attachment points and some assumed anatomy correlations), and it doesn't do so well on things like the digital cushion at the base of the hoof and how it develops into a secondary pump mechanism.
The whole mechanism of standing on the tip of a toe is substantially different behavior from standing on the toe pads and requires a {modified\changed\evolved} structure to support it.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Christian, posted 12-14-2005 5:29 PM Christian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2005 11:10 PM RAZD has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 167 of 204 (269519)
12-14-2005 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by RAZD
12-14-2005 10:27 PM


Re: Pelycodus ...Horse ...Elephant?
arachnophilia has posted a diagram of the bone structure
i'm sure i could go textbook hunting and find a nicer diagram with more species -- actually, there might be one in that book i recommended christian.
christian, do you still have that book from the library? if so, does it go into any detail about horse evolution?

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by RAZD, posted 12-14-2005 10:27 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by RAZD, posted 12-15-2005 12:30 AM arachnophilia has not replied
 Message 171 by Christian, posted 12-21-2005 5:27 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 168 of 204 (269542)
12-15-2005 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by arachnophilia
12-14-2005 11:10 PM


Re: Pelycodus ...Horse ...Elephant?
I'm interested in the foot blood pumping mechanism, it is obviously a feature that enables the leg to grow longer and still have adequate blood supply. Perhaps a clue in the relative sizes of the ancestor species (a sudden increase in size?)? foot arrangement? how well hooves fossilize as opposed to bone?
how big was merychippus?
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/...ci/vertpaleo/fhc/merychippus.htm
ah. found some info:
http://www.geocities.com/.../Park/7841/horse_evol/trans.html
the drawings are to scale
unfortunately the skeletons were not
the last seems to be the legs to scale (doesn't say) with the same pictures as yours.
looks like merychippus is a big step eh?

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This message is a reply to:
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Christian
Member (Idle past 6255 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 169 of 204 (271511)
12-21-2005 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by arachnophilia
12-14-2005 8:17 PM


Re: hoof arted.
feel free to look up the species named in something that's not a webpage.
that's a good idea. I'll look them up in the vertebrate palentology book you recommended I read.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2005 8:17 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by arachnophilia, posted 12-21-2005 5:12 PM Christian has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 170 of 204 (271515)
12-21-2005 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Christian
12-21-2005 5:01 PM


Re: hoof arted.
feel free to look up the species named in something that's not a webpage.
that's a good idea. I'll look them up in the vertebrate palentology book you recommended I read.
well, i just wanted you to look at the pictures, but i admire your effort to read it. did you buy it, or just keep renewing it from the library?
i don't recall if it goes into horse evolution in specific, though i'm sure you could find whole books on that. i used the part on bird evolution for a art project, thought it was one of many resources, and not my primary one. it's far too general, really.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Christian, posted 12-21-2005 5:01 PM Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Christian, posted 12-21-2005 5:31 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Christian
Member (Idle past 6255 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 171 of 204 (271520)
12-21-2005 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by arachnophilia
12-14-2005 11:10 PM


Re: Pelycodus ...Horse ...Elephant?
actually, there might be one in that book i recommended christian.
That's what I was thinking. (posted before I read this)
christian, do you still have that book from the library? if so, does it go into any detail about horse evolution?
I still have the book. I didn't have to check it out of the library since my husband already had a copy. It has some stuff about horse evolution. I need to look at it again. Been kind of out of it lately with being sick and then getting ready for Christmas.
I'm looking at it now, it has that same picture that you posted, or something very similar, with the horses hooves.
I'm just reading it a bit as I'm working on this post. Here's an interesting quote:
Early work suggested that horses constituted a single assemblage that progressed relatively steadily from the small sized Hyracotherium (Eohippus), with low-crowned teeth and four toes on the front feet and three on the rear, to the modern genus Equus, which has high-crowned teeth and whose manus and pes are reduced to a single toe. Subsequent research has demonstrated a much more complex radiation, with many divergent lineages of browsers and grazers overlapping one another in time.
Don't know whether that contradicts your idea of things or not, RAZD, but thought it was interesting. Anyway, I'll read this section thouroughly (doesn't look very long, so might not have any more explicit information that what I already have, but a good place to start). Then I'll let you guys know what I think.
Have a nice day and Merry Christmas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2005 11:10 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by arachnophilia, posted 12-21-2005 9:42 PM Christian has not replied
 Message 175 by RAZD, posted 12-23-2005 9:49 PM Christian has not replied

  
Christian
Member (Idle past 6255 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 172 of 204 (271522)
12-21-2005 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by arachnophilia
12-21-2005 5:12 PM


Re: hoof arted.
i don't recall if it goes into horse evolution in specific, though i'm sure you could find whole books on that. i used the part on bird evolution for a art project, thought it was one of many resources, and not my primary one. it's far too general, really
Yeah, it seems pretty general. I looked on amazon for some books specifically on horse evolution and didn't come up with much. What they had was pretty expensive. Maybe I'll check the library.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by arachnophilia, posted 12-21-2005 5:12 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by arachnophilia, posted 12-21-2005 9:43 PM Christian has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 173 of 204 (271582)
12-21-2005 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Christian
12-21-2005 5:27 PM


Re: Pelycodus ...Horse ...Elephant?
I still have the book. I didn't have to check it out of the library since my husband already had a copy.
oh, that's handy. he just happened to have one laying around?
It has some stuff about horse evolution. I need to look at it again. Been kind of out of it lately with being sick and then getting ready for Christmas.
i know the feeling. i've been out spending all my money on other people.
I'm looking at it now, it has that same picture that you posted, or something very similar, with the horses hooves.
does it have more than four items? i know the book i checked out bird evolution had an entire series of dino-to-bird hips that spanned several million years and at least 7 distinct genuses of dinos, as well as modern birds. even that's leaving a lot out, but you it gives the general picture.
quote:
Early work suggested that horses constituted a single assemblage that progressed relatively steadily from the small sized Hyracotherium (Eohippus), with low-crowned teeth and four toes on the front feet and three on the rear, to the modern genus Equus, which has high-crowned teeth and whose manus and pes are reduced to a single toe. Subsequent research has demonstrated a much more complex radiation, with many divergent lineages of browsers and grazers overlapping one another in time.
well, that's kind of the old debate point. people expect evolution to go in a straight line, for whatever reason. it doesn't. it branches, sometimes into very, very complex cladograms. not all variations and species survive. had we all the evidence (realistically impossible) we could easily trace the exact route of horse lineage. realistically, we end up comparing species and noting commonalities, extrapolating how recent each is to their common ancestor.
thus the term "missing link." it's like we were to have me, and my uncle, but not my grandfather. we could figure out that my grandfather existed, even without him specifically.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Christian, posted 12-21-2005 5:27 PM Christian has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 174 of 204 (271583)
12-21-2005 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Christian
12-21-2005 5:31 PM


Re: hoof arted.
Maybe I'll check the library.
if it's a reasonable college library it should have a section of vertebrate paleontology. that'd be a good section to browse in general. (bio too, i'm just a childhood paleonut.)

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Christian, posted 12-21-2005 5:31 PM Christian has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 175 of 204 (272271)
12-23-2005 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Christian
12-21-2005 5:27 PM


Re: Pelycodus ...Horse ...Elephant?
Subsequent research has demonstrated a much more complex radiation, with many divergent lineages of browsers and grazers overlapping one another in time.
Don't know whether that contradicts your idea of things or not, RAZD,
Not really, as this is common in unraveling lineages. It shows we do have to be careful about making conclusions of which animals are in the direct lineage between eohippus and modern horse, but we still know that the general development went from a to b.
To make it more confusing still, what we may find is that some fossils represent a "cousin" branch where we don't have a common ancestor sample, and this "cousin" species may have both some features that are from the (missing) common ancestor (and thus relate to the direct line of development) and other features that are unique to the "cousin" species (and thus don't relate to the direct line).

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Christian, posted 12-21-2005 5:27 PM Christian has not replied

  
Christian
Member (Idle past 6255 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 176 of 204 (275839)
01-04-2006 5:30 PM


won't be here much for awhile
I just wanted to let you guys know that I'm not going to spend as much time here as I was (haven't been on lately because of Christmas and a different schedule than usual). I've decided that I want to read through the Bible since I've never actually read through it. I think the best way to do that is to set aside time each day. I was using "rest time" as my computer time. But I think that now it will be my Bible reading time. We'll see how it goes. Maybe I'll still be on once a week, maybe Thursdays, but not tomorrow. Anyway, this doesn't mean that I've stopped researching material about evolution. I'm still reading "Ancient Earth, Ancient Skies" and the paleontology book. I'm also reading "What Evolution Is" by Ernst Mayr and "The Origen of Species" by Darwin himself. Of course there are many others as well (some by creationist Authors and some about other things entirely) so I'm not going through any of them very quickly. If anyone comes up with other books they think will be helpful to me, please let me know, because I will be checking in peroidically. Thanks, Happy New Year.

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by RAZD, posted 01-04-2006 7:18 PM Christian has not replied
 Message 178 by Coragyps, posted 01-04-2006 9:19 PM Christian has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 177 of 204 (275871)
01-04-2006 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Christian
01-04-2006 5:30 PM


Re: won't be here much for awhile
enjoy your quest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Christian, posted 01-04-2006 5:30 PM Christian has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 178 of 204 (275901)
01-04-2006 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Christian
01-04-2006 5:30 PM


Re: won't be here much for awhile
Happy reading, Christian. You might consider skipping Numbers and the first half of Joshua, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Christian, posted 01-04-2006 5:30 PM Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Christian, posted 01-06-2006 6:07 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Christian
Member (Idle past 6255 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 179 of 204 (276485)
01-06-2006 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Coragyps
01-04-2006 9:19 PM


Re: won't be here much for awhile
I just clicked reply and then realized how completely off-topic we are with this. Anyway Thanks, but I think I'll read all of it. So far I've written down about 15 pages of questions. I'm not going to worry about the answers yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Coragyps, posted 01-04-2006 9:19 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Christian
Member (Idle past 6255 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 180 of 204 (283703)
02-03-2006 6:43 PM


horse evolution
Here's something someone said about horse evolution on another forum. I, of course, loved it. But I am smart enough to know you people probably have a rebuttal so here's what was said:
Textbooks have been lying to our children for years. Trust me, I have fought this battle many times.
They tell children modern horse came from a four toed horse(Silver Burder, Earth Science 1987 pg 361).
What they don't tell kids is the original horse, the eohippus has 18 pairs of
ribs, the mesohippus has 15 pairs of ribs, mirohippus has 19 pairs of ribs, modern horse is back to 18. (Prentis Hall Life Science 1991, page 500.) Going up and down with the rib count? Come on. thats not evolution.
Here is the problem with the horse evolution:
1. Made up by Othniel C. Marsh in 1874 from animal fossils he picked up scattered across the world, not from the same location. (He arranged them in the order he thought it happened)
2. Modern horses are found in layers with and lower than anciect horses.
3. The "ancient horse" is not a horse at all, it's a hyrax still alive in South America today. Ribs toes and teeth are different.
The Tulsa Zoo took out their horse evolution display because of it's inaccuracies.
So I'd like to hear your comments on that. Also, I'm still looking for more detailed information on horse evolution,if anyone knows of any sources. Thanks.

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by DrJones*, posted 02-03-2006 6:46 PM Christian has replied
 Message 182 by Chiroptera, posted 02-03-2006 6:55 PM Christian has replied
 Message 183 by nator, posted 02-03-2006 7:04 PM Christian has replied
 Message 184 by Modulous, posted 02-03-2006 7:05 PM Christian has not replied
 Message 185 by Chiroptera, posted 02-03-2006 7:17 PM Christian has not replied
 Message 194 by Coragyps, posted 02-08-2006 5:34 PM Christian has not replied
 Message 200 by RAZD, posted 02-08-2006 9:06 PM Christian has not replied

  
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