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Author
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Topic: God says this, and God says that
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forgiven
Inactive Member
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Message 196 of 417 (26554)
12-13-2002 10:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 180 by gene90
12-13-2002 3:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
But that was 2,000 years ago. Is it your opinion that revelation has ended with Jesus' ministry? I'm not contending, only curious. [This message has been edited by gene90, 12-13-2002]
revelation? i guess i need to know what you mean by that, but my short answer is yes... unless new scripture is written, we have all we need from God... we have his Spirit now to witness to us the truth contained in his word... see gene, if that wasn't the case we might have all kinds of cults and sects sprouting up saying "this is of God" and "that is of God"... wait!! we do, eh? and that's the reason, imho... because many don't accept that God has spoken that doesn't mean we can't come to more grace and knowledge, merely that the way we come to both is through our maturity in the things he's spoken...
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 180 by gene90, posted 12-13-2002 3:14 PM | | gene90 has not replied |
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forgiven
Inactive Member
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Message 197 of 417 (26555)
12-13-2002 10:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 193 by Chara
12-13-2002 7:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Chara:
There is a verse in Hebrews 12 that says, "For [our earthly fathers] disciplined us for only a short period of time and chastised us as seemed proper and good to them; but HE disciplines us for our certain good, that we may become sharers in His own holiness." When we don't have a proper earthly picture of this, we can sometimes get a distorted view of what God's punishment is all about. I can vividly remember not enjoying being punished by my earthly father, but one thing I did know, looking back on it is that he always desired the best for me, that he loved me.
i agree with this, but i do have a problem with the word "punishment"... i don't believe God punishes us at all, whether saint or sinner... the word "discipline" actually means "to train"... that's what God does... punishment implies judgement, it implies retrobution, it implies vengenance... there will be a time and place for those things, but as far as *I* (personally) am concerned, Jesus was judged, he was punished, God's wrath was poured out on him FOR ME... God will never ever never ever punish me for anything i do, think, or say... he will allow the consequences of those things in my life, but as the means to an end, the training in holiness he knows i need... not arguing semantics i hope, merely giving my understanding of his word
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 193 by Chara, posted 12-13-2002 7:20 PM | | Chara has not replied |
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forgiven
Inactive Member
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quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Thanx for this piece of wisdom Forgiven, I never thought of this, that God just allows us to suffer the consequences of our actions, that the actual punishment is self inflicted, by a bad decision. Then God uses these things to his purpose on my life. I was just thinking of the book of James (one of my favourite) chapter 1: 2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
hi funky... we make good and bad decisions our whole lives... those decisions have absolutely nothing to do with our standing with God or our acceptance by him... he isn't always pleased, of course, just as a human parent wouldn't be pleased when his child behaves poorly... but imo punishment for our actions doesn't enter into it... what would we be punished *for*? sinning? nah, Jesus already paid that debt...
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 209 by zipzip, posted 12-15-2002 8:18 AM | | forgiven has not replied |
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forgiven
Inactive Member
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Message 323 of 417 (26882)
12-16-2002 7:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 296 by nator
12-16-2002 2:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
quote:
Originally posted by Chara:
quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator: Religions say they know. I say that nobody can know. Therefore, religion is not valid. Not any of it.
Schraf,
Can you explain how you got to "therefore" from the previous statements? I'm confused.
Hmm. Religions claim to know the unknowable. If someone claims to know the unknowable, their claims are not valid.
not very convincing, schraf... what religions claim that? who invalidated another's knowledge claim? i know God, are you saying God is unknowable? if so, on what basis do you make that statement... if not, please clarify your position
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 296 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 2:51 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 339 by nator, posted 12-18-2002 9:22 AM | | forgiven has replied |
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forgiven
Inactive Member
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quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
I suppose you could call yourself a Catholic and not believe in the Immaculate Conception but it is an official doctrine.
you *could* call yourself a catholic i guess... a heretical catholic... there is no room here, if one is a catholic one believes in all the church says to believe or one is anathema
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 317 by robinrohan, posted 12-16-2002 6:06 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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forgiven
Inactive Member
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Message 325 of 417 (26887)
12-16-2002 7:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 319 by nator
12-16-2002 6:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
Something is unknowable if we cannot detect it with our senses. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but it does mean that we can't detect it, so it is effectively and for all practical purposes non-existent.
but schraf, you said
Religions say they know. I say that nobody can know. Therefore, religion is not valid. Not any of it. all i've seen you do is give your opinion, and even then you don't show upon what it's based... and the above is simply incredible... if only that which is material (detectable with our senses) can exist, what tools are you utilizing to have these correspondences?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 319 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 6:20 PM | | nator has not replied |
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forgiven
Inactive Member
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Message 327 of 417 (26890)
12-16-2002 7:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 326 by John
12-16-2002 7:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
I suppose you could call yourself a Catholic and not believe in the Immaculate Conception but it is an official doctrine.
you *could* call yourself a catholic i guess... a heretical catholic... there is no room here, if one is a catholic one believes in all the church says to believe or one is anathema
It wasn't always so. It didn't become doctrine until 1854.
unfortunately, that isn't all one must believe if one is a catholic... mary must have remained a virgin, mary must have been bodily assumed into heaven, mary *must* be deemed "Co-Redemptrix" with her son.. so much more
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 326 by John, posted 12-16-2002 7:41 PM | | John has not replied |
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forgiven
Inactive Member
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Message 330 of 417 (26895)
12-16-2002 8:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 329 by Chara
12-16-2002 8:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Chara:
quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
Something is unknowable if we cannot detect it with our senses.
This is of course presuming that we can trust our senses.
good pernt chara... and of course i trust mine... schraf, i'm sure, trusts hers... however, therein lies a problem eh?... chara, do you remember elijah and his servant? on the mountain? the servant couldn't understand elijah's lack of fear, given the army coming against them... and elijah asked God to give his servant "sight"... there are senses and there are senses... i guess we could only accept the senses that the largest number of people say they have... leave it up to a vote, as it were
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 329 by Chara, posted 12-16-2002 8:02 PM | | Chara has not replied |
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forgiven
Inactive Member
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quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
Yes, but you have to allow room for liberal Catholics or liberal anything else. For example, the "holy war" against the infidels by Muslims. Many liberal Muslims interpret this in a different way.
yayus.. and i'm sure within the muslim community all the "sects" vie for the right to proclaim theirs *the* truth...
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 328 by robinrohan, posted 12-16-2002 7:53 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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forgiven
Inactive Member
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Message 336 of 417 (27083)
12-17-2002 6:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 334 by Weyland
12-17-2002 10:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Weyland:
quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
you *could* call yourself a catholic i guess... a heretical catholic... there is no room here, if one is a catholic one believes in all the church says to believe or one is anathema
I put it to you that you don't actually know too many Catholics. The catholics I know cover the range from the devout and dogmatic to the liberal, just like the members of every other religion.
Protestants have it easy - every time you disagree with someone else in your church over religion you can schism and found a new church with a more "accurate" set of beliefs 
i'm not saying that individual catholics don't part company with rome, weyland.. i'm saying that if they believe the teachings of the church they believe they are accursed if they *do* part ways with the holy see
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 334 by Weyland, posted 12-17-2002 10:01 AM | | Weyland has not replied |
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forgiven
Inactive Member
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quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
I'm trying to avoid being condescending or preachy here, I'm just saying if someone is claiming a personal relationship with God, that maybe they have an extra "sense" or a divinely given "understanding".
what you say is true... spiritual things are spirituallly discerned... God is spirit... our spirits, once dead, are reborn...
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forgiven
Inactive Member
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Message 343 of 417 (27268)
12-18-2002 7:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 339 by nator
12-18-2002 9:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
This part of my worldview is not very firm, however, and I vaccilate sometimes. The only part I am sure of is that I don't know if there is a God or not. 
this is more acceptable as it isn't spoken as if a knowledge claim exists... but please don't assume that your lack of knowledge in any one area means another's profession of such knowledge is in error
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 339 by nator, posted 12-18-2002 9:22 AM | | nator has not replied |
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forgiven
Inactive Member
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Message 351 of 417 (27804)
12-24-2002 6:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 350 by Gzus
12-24-2002 3:07 PM
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Originally posted by Gzus:
but the question 'is the gospel true?' is very much the same as 'is there money in the bank'. you have no reasonable obligation to believe it. yes, christians do believe that God has given everyone ample testimony of his existence, and God asks only that man trust him... that's all he's ever asked... christians believe it is very reasonable to believe God exists... of those who believe God exists, some trust him but don't believe Jesus is Messiah... some trust him but believe Jesus and man are co-Messiahs... some trust him but believe salvation is of God alone, and that Jesus earned it for us... and some don't trust him at all is it reasonable to believe the gospel is true? only if one believes God exists and only if one then trusts him
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 350 by Gzus, posted 12-24-2002 3:07 PM | | Gzus has not replied |
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forgiven
Inactive Member
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quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
quote:
Originally posted by Gzus:
'all those who have heard the gospel and yet do not believe, will be condemned'- i seem to remember somewhere from sunday school.
"The Lord Jesus shall be revealed ... in flaming fire taking vengeance on them
that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
2 Thessalonians 1:7,8 KJV What I'd like to know is - What's to obey? db
"... believeth on him... "
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 352 by doctrbill, posted 12-24-2002 10:14 PM | | doctrbill has not replied |
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forgiven
Inactive Member
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Davies:
quote:
"The Lord Jesus shall be revealed ... in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 2 Thessalonians 1:7,8 KJV
Which gospel? What translation? Should those who wish to learn what the Christian god said need to learn Aramaic or Greek to really get the full effect? Or is the true gospel, the true holy book written in some dead language on some island peoples who died 10k years ago? Actually, it sounds more like threats from those who want you to believe the church they support.
this post and your previous might lead one to believe that while you don't deny God's existence you would need more before you could decide *which* God exists, the muslim, hindu, christian God... is this in fact your position?
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