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Author Topic:   Steps toward loss and restoration of Salvation
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 1 of 59 (270243)
12-17-2005 1:19 AM


Response to Iano
Iano posted this in I'm trying: A stairway to heaven -- Re: Jesus gave directions and I would like to explain my thoughts about this and get his response.
iano writes:
PS: have you got a step-by-step guide as to your view on the 'whole story' similar to the one I gave a few posts back. Not by analogy but just plain english. Like I said - not necessarily for debate but just to see how you view the mechanics. If it such that 'try' will only be shown by seeing the overall workings then it would be good to deal with it in that way. What do you think?
To be specific, I would like to start with the nature of Adam in his original state before "sinning", the "fall" of Adam, and the "restoration" of Adam. More specifically, I would like to present data which will attempt to establish that Adam had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from the very beginning.
If this can be agreed upon, I would then like to broaden the discussion outward to encompass humanity's condition in general in order to display that people who do not know Christ can nonetheless be moved by the Holy Spirit toward salvation.
A latter part of the discussion might revolve around a careful examination of what scripture and church history say in regards to the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit -- and who can have this.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-17-2005 03:35 AM
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-17-2005 08:01 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-17-2005 2:17 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 3 of 59 (270285)
12-17-2005 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
12-17-2005 2:17 AM


Re: No topic theme detected
Bump...the first post has been editted.
Sorry about the vague 1st post Adminnemooseus. I'm a little bit rusty being away for a month or so. I made changes in the 1st post.
Do these changes refine the topic and suggested discussion more clearly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-17-2005 2:17 AM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminPhat, posted 12-17-2005 9:57 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 6 of 59 (270456)
12-18-2005 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by AdminPhat
12-17-2005 10:07 AM


Thank you.
Ok, I guess I'll just start with some small quotes from Iano and myself, then give a few quick links which addresses these questions and then comment on the links in response to Iano's quote.
iano writes:
Did Adam go to heaven. IIRC that I said I didn't know. There is too little said about him to decided one way or the other.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Then why did you say this earlier?
iano writes:
Whilst I agree that we can do nothing to earn our salvation - it is all of God - we don't get it by default either. Damnation is the default positon - we are all born in Adam.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
But if you don't know for sure whether Adam went to hell or not, then why do you insist that damnation is the defult position for all born in Adam?
See, here's the thing iano -- the Scriptures do not explicitly state that Adam went to hell. In fact, to the contrary, it appears that Adam was restored to the point of salvation by God, spirtually wounded and capable of dying physically but not necessarilly hell-bound without further transgressions enacted on his own. Therefore, the whole starting point of your "default" premise seems to be flawed.
You had also noted that it was impossible for someone who had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to lose this indwelling and therefore go to hell -- essentially stating that Adam had to have no indwelling in the "very beginning" because his having this would have prevented his "fall".
I will quote our previous conversation:
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Adam was created perfect from the beginning. His default position seems to be starting form the vantage point of having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit -- yet he still fails and leads all people to experience physical death from then on.
iano writes:
I disagree. There is no evidence of indwelling of Spirit as regards Adam. Given the purpose of indwelling of the Spirit: to lead and instruct in the way of righteousness and to intercede with the Father on our behalf - I would say that this view doesn't fit.
It doesn't fit in your opinion because -- in my opinion -- it doesn't fit with your theological views. I will now present what many Christian groups believe to be scriptural evidence for the Holy Spirit's indwelling of Adam.
Observe the following links:
The Holy Spirit, a florilegium of Old Testament texts and some thoughts on them.
God’s “breathing upon” Adam was the Holy Spirit
Chapter 6: The Holy Spirit During the Old Testament Ages
I could go on with this, since I'm noting that these same observations are easilly correllated amongst a broad range of Christian denominations, including Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran and Congregational groups.
Here's another one from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
CotCC writes:
By his virginal conception, Jesus, the New Adam, ushers in the new birth of children adopted in the Holy Spirit through faith. "How can this be?"165 Participation in the divine life arises "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God".166 The acceptance of this life is virginal because it is entirely the Spirit's gift to man. The spousal character of the human vocation in relation to God167 is fulfilled perfectly in Mary's virginal motherhood.
I realize that you probably disagree with me in regards to my views on Mary, but do please note that in order for Jesus to be the "new Adam" totally indwelled by the Holy Spirit, it would be proper to conclude that Adam too must have been created with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as well. Even though Adam appears to be formed from the dust whereas Christ is formed from the virgin's womb, both start from a slate of perfection which is due to their individual incarnations with the Spirit's indwelling.
This is another article from a different Christian perspective -- and, again, it's not specifically Catholic:
The Giving of God's Holy Spirit
Please note that I'm not in agreement with all these links above in regards to the exact, precise nature of the Holy Spirit's working in man -- yet each one from a variety of different denominational perspectives readilly agree that Adam had the Spirit's indwelling from the beginning until his fall.
In short, most think it imperative to conclude that when God breathed upon Adam this paralleled Jesus breathing upon his apostles to give them the gift of the Holy Spirit. Many Christians are in agreement on this point and I find it odd that you are arguing that Adam was a "blank slate" at all.
Indeed, if Adam was a blank slate then how on earth could he be held accountable for not choosing right from wrong in the first place?
Edit: Please note I'm not looking to go any further in this discussion until we can agree on whether Adam had the Holy Spirit's indwelling or not. If we cannot agree on this (and many other Christians do agree with me), then there's really no point in arguing over the finer points or restoration when the Spirit's left.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-18-2005 07:25 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by AdminPhat, posted 12-17-2005 10:07 AM AdminPhat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 12-18-2005 10:25 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
 Message 16 by ramoss, posted 12-19-2005 11:34 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
 Message 18 by iano, posted 12-19-2005 2:53 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 8 of 59 (270504)
12-18-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
12-18-2005 10:25 AM


Re: Adam's sin does not preclude his regeneration
Faith writes:
Hi Mr. Ex.
Hi Faith. It's nice to hear from you again.
Faith writes:
I gather that this is intended to be mostly a conversation with IanO but since it isn't a Great Debate maybe I can put my two cents worth in?
Actually, although I was primarilly talking to iano, I certainly welcome any feedback and thoughts you might have.
Faith writes:
Just to say that I don't see any contradiction between our inheritance of sin through Adam's fall and Adam's having the indwelling Spirit, as the Spirit is given for faith and certainly Eve and no doubt Adam too had faith in the promised Messiah.
So you're saying that someone can have the indwelling of the Spirit and then lose it? I'm not sure what you're agreeing to here.
Faith writes:
However, I don't think that Adam DID have the indwelling Spirit although I believe he was saved.
Why not -- and if not then how was he saved without the Spirit's indwelling?
Faith writes:
Only those born AD have that privilege.
See, this is something that I was pointing out to iano as well: I've already quoted many passages in the Hebrew Scriptures which do indicate that the Holy Spirit was not only moving people in the past, but also noting passages which seem to strongly indicate the the Holy Spirit has been indwelling people in the past.
For example:
Psalm 51:10-12 (NIV) writes:
Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.
Clearly, it seems to me anyway, that this passage indicates that the Holy Spirit was indwelling people well before Christ was born, died and glorified in rising to new life.
One could get "picky" and say that there is a difference between a "steadfast spirit", the "Holy Spirit", and a "willing spirit" -- but I think this is a moot point since the "steadfast spirit" and the "willing spirit" are both manifestations of the Holy Spirit at work in them according to the Christian Scriptures.
One could also argue that this passage is refering to the future period where Christ will come and bring the restoration. However, in using the word "restore", it implies that the author who wrote Psalm 51:10-12 at one time actually possessed it.
It makes little sense for one to request for the restoration of something to oneself if the one requesting for restoration never actually had the thing being sought for restoration in the first place.
Consequnetly, Stephen, in the book of Acts seems to indicate that the Holy Spirit was what the Israelites of old were rebelling against...
Acts 7:51 writes:
You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
One might note that Stephen's reference to "fathers" is almost certainly understood as "ancestors" in the passage.
And the book of Hebrews indicates that it was the Holy Spirit who said the following in Psalm 95:7-11:
NIV writes:
Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.'
Consequnetly, Isaiah 63:9-11 says this very same thing, explicitly stating that when man goes against the Holy Spirit God become's their enemy...
NIV writes:
In all their distress he too was distressed,
and the angel of his presence saved them.
In his love and mercy he redeemed them;
he lifted them up and carried them
all the days of old.
Yet they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he turned and became their enemy
and he himself fought against them.
Then his people recalled the days of old,
the days of Moses and his people”
where is he who brought them through the sea,
with the shepherd of his flock?
Where is he who set
his Holy Spirit among them...
Faith writes:
But nevertheless many were saved before Christ by trusting in God's promise of the Messiah.
I too agree with you on this part but for a different reason. Trusting in the promise of the Messiah, in my opinion anyway, is but yet another "evidence" of the Holy Spirit being at work in them in the first place.
Or, as the Christian Scriptures clearly state:
NIV writes:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith ” and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God ” not by works, so that no one can boast.
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
And, as it is elsewhere noted, faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit -- so it had to be at work well before Christ's death and resurrection or else the Israelite's who did not directly see God's miracles would not have even believed in God in the first place.
NIV writes:
Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
Faith writes:
It has become an individual thing.
I still don't see it this way, and I'm fairly sure the Scriptures do not actually back up what you're claiming here. But I'm willing to listen if you feel there are Scriptural passages which clearly indicate that the Holy Spirit was not indwelling people prior to the coming of Christ
Faith writes:
In Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive, through faith, so those born in Adam, inheriting original sin, may nevertheless look to Christ -- BC or AD doesn't matter -- and inherit eternal life in Him.
Again, Scriptural references please.
Faith writes:
I suspect I have some of the theology wrong here, being sure of this but neverthless uncertain as to how to explain clearly that Adam both bequeaths the fallen nature to his progeny and is personally saved.
But, as I've said before to you many times in other threads, you also might be right. I've never claimed any type of infallable authority in regards to what I believe -- my church does that for me.
However, based on my understanding of the Scriptures in conjunction with what I beleive the Spirit has enabled me to understand, I do not think you are correct on this matter.
Faith writes:
{AbE: Maybe this is clarifying: I'm thinking of it in terms of the way all who are in Christ through faith cannot be certain their own children will be saved. We all bequeath the fallen nature to our children, even those of us who are regenerate in Christ -- original sin is universal but salvation is individual.}
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you explain further?
In my opinion the original sin brought "death" to Adam and Eve and all their descendants -- the entire human race. But I think that many conflate Adam and Eve's ability to die with the idea of going to hell.
Spiritually speaking, I believe the original sin left humanity spiritually wounded -- but not spiritually dead.
And although I believe that humanity is also born spiritually wounded (because their "innate connection" with Christ is impaired), I do not believe that people who are newly born are "by default" going to hell.
More things would need to be done on an individual basis before damnation would occur to each individual -- with damnation happening in proportion to how much each individual rejects the motion of the Holy Spirit (there's more to this, but I want to resolve the matter of Adam having the Holy Spirit's indwelling before I go further).
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-18-2005 04:43 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 12-18-2005 10:25 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 12-18-2005 5:10 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 10 of 59 (270606)
12-18-2005 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
12-18-2005 5:10 PM


Re: Adam's sin does not preclude his regeneration
Quick summary: My point is that Adam most likely had the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit. It would also appear, based on the Hebrew Scriptures, that other people besides Adam also had the Spirit's indwelling -- and that this indwelling took place well before the "incarnation" of Christ.
I thought I had already explained (with Phat's assistance) that these specific topics were going to be my starting points right from the beginning.
Was there anything I was unclear on?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 12-18-2005 5:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 12-18-2005 8:15 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 13 of 59 (270671)
12-19-2005 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
12-18-2005 8:15 PM


Re: Adam's sin does not preclude his regeneration
By all means, if you wish to discuss this further please feel free to read up on what you believe. However, I have pointed toward passages of Scripture which do indicate that the Holy Spirit was "indwelling" people prior to Christ's incarnation -- which I think you've kind of agreed was possible?
Let me know what you think after you've looked into it further (if you want to pursue this discussion. )
My own view is that the Holy Spirit has indeed been indwelling people in the past, starting from Adam right up until present time -- but that through Christianity we have access to the Spirit's indwelling without limit.
This unlimited access does not mean, in my opinion, that we can continue to sin forever and ever and never be rejected by Christ. However, I do think that the Spirit's indwelling for Christianity removes the restrictions encountered by others outside the Christian faith.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-19-2005 05:22 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 12-18-2005 8:15 PM Faith has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 14 of 59 (270697)
12-19-2005 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by robinrohan
12-18-2005 10:06 PM


Re: Adam's sin does not preclude his regeneration
Did you want to add anything to that robinrohan?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by robinrohan, posted 12-18-2005 10:06 PM robinrohan has replied

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Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 23 of 59 (270956)
12-19-2005 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by iano
12-19-2005 2:53 PM


Re: Thank you.
Then exactly what Spirit was breathed into Adam by God then?
Do you know, according to standard Christian theology, of any other Spirit of God which creates in man a clean heart -- and a state of innocence like we find in Adam -- a Spirit other than the Holy Spirit?
Like I said, I'm not going any further in this discussion until we either definitively agree or disagree on whether Adam had the Holy Spirit's indwelling.
If you disagree, explain why. I've already pointed out why I feel the Holy Spirit was indwelling Adam. I've provided Scriptural references for it too -- so please at least address my starting point before we move on to the other parts.
Ok?
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-19-2005 10:54 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by iano, posted 12-19-2005 2:53 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by iano, posted 12-20-2005 6:13 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 24 of 59 (270964)
12-19-2005 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ramoss
12-19-2005 11:34 AM


Re: Thank you.
I've enjoyed reading some of the teachings of Moses Maimonides -- and, like St. Thomas Aquinas, I've retained some things from the "rabbi's" teachings.
Consequently, I actually don't believe that God the Father is a "man" in the "human" sense anyway. Neither the Holy Spirit. God is Spirit -- and sexless.
Bearing this mind, the designations of male and female are pretty much irrelvant to me since God is described in the Hebrew Scriptures using both male and female characteristics, although admittedly male characteristics are more dominantly used than female.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ramoss, posted 12-19-2005 11:34 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by ramoss, posted 12-20-2005 8:45 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 37 of 59 (271208)
12-20-2005 8:43 PM


Faith and ramoss
Faith and ramoss...interesting topic...but...uh...could you take it to a new thread please?
I agree it's kind of related to what iano and I are discussing -- but it kinda doesn't fit too. You both seem to be debating this topic from the perspective of arguing over whether something is jewish or christian -- and which is the right perspective.
The conversation between iano and I seems to be based on the assumption that the Christian faith at least is accurate within its own context -- and we're trying to refine some aspects of how the Holy Spirit works within this assumed context.
Just sayin'.
Edit: If you guys would like to debate the idea of the "dwelling" that purpledawn interjected, I'd be ok with that. I actually thought purpledawn's contribution from a Jewish perspective was really interesting. I never noticed that before.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-20-2005 08:49 PM

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 38 of 59 (271398)
12-21-2005 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by iano
12-20-2005 6:13 AM


Re: Spirit indwelling in Adam
iano writes:
I agree that God breathed something of himself into man which made him in his image and likeness but the biblical material available is too limited to tell us precisely what was involved.
So what other Spirit would God breath into Adam if not the Holy Spirit?
iano writes:
I would agree that it was Gods Spirit that entered man.
Is God's Spirit not the Holy Spirit?
iano writes:
The word 'indwelling' of the Spirit has it's in/outworkings fairly clearly described in the context of a person who has been justified by fait.
Was Adam not justified by faith in God the Messiah?
iano writes:
But what that has to do with "indwelling" of the Spirit as it pertained to Adam I don't know.
According to the Scriptures God breathed his Spirit into Adam fairly well the same way Christ breathed the Holy Spirit into his apostles.
Seems to be the same mechanics to me.
iano writes:
The use of the word indwelling is to my mind inappropriate as it is not described as having the characteristics and purposes associated with NT indwelling.
What differences have you noted between the working of God's Spirit in the Hebrew Scriptures when contrasted to the working of the Holy Spirit in the Christian Scriptures?
They seem to be producing the same effects to me -- although the outpouring of the Holy Spirit within the framework of Christ's salvatory action seems to be an outpouring without limit whereas the outpouring of God's Spirit prior to Christ's coming seems to have finite limits.
iano writes:
The person who receives the indwelling in the latter case is a completely different case from Adam. Their starting from 2 different vantage points: 1 is fallen the other at the time of receipt, wasn't.
So you're saying the difference between the two indwellings was that Adam was in a state of sin whereas Christ was in a state of perfection?
If I'm understanding you correctly, this is wrong. Adam was not fallen when he received God's Spirit. Adam was in a state of perfection, being without sin, when he received the Spirit of God -- just like Christ was when he received the Holy Spirit's permission from on high (in the form of a dove).
Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly. Could you explain this point further please?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by iano, posted 12-20-2005 6:13 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by iano, posted 12-21-2005 12:25 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 42 of 59 (271596)
12-21-2005 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by iano
12-21-2005 12:25 PM


Re: Spirit indwelling in Adam
iano writes:
Sorry, yes of course it was the Holy Spirit
Ok, so do you agree that references to God's Spirit in the Hebrew Scriptures is understood as references to the Holy Spirit within a Christian framework?
iano writes:
I don't know. There doesn't appear to be anything written about Adam being justified by faith in God as far as I can tell.
Exactly how precise of information are you looking for?
I ask this because there are many things not specifically said in the Scriptures -- certain conclusions are inferred based on the information available as the reader is enabled by the Holy Spirit to do comprehend it.
In the other thread, for example, where we were debating, you claimed that the Law was given specifically for the purpose to condemn. I countered your claim by pointing to three different passages from the Christian Scriptures which specifically stated that the purpose of the Law was to reveal Christ.
The Scriptures, in this previous case regarding our discussion of the purpose of the Law, do not explictly state what you've claimed. In fact, what you've claimed is a conclusion that you've inferred based on your reading of the Christian Scriptures. For the record, it remains quite possible that your inference is incorrect -- especially since I have pointed to three specific passages which explicitly claim that the purpose of the Law was to reveal Christ -- not condemn.
When you make the claim, "There doesn't appear to be anything written about Adam being justified by faith in God as far as I can tell", I'm left a little bit perplexed by how easilly you infer that the Law was given strictly for the purpose to condemn all the while having difficulty in inferring that Adam was justified by faith in God.
Let me put it another way: How else is someone saved if not by their faith in God?
This brings me back to another question: If, based on the Scriptures, you are still unsure about whether Adam was damned or not, then, based on the Scriptures, how can you be so sure about whether or not all born in Adam are by default damned?
I think this is a valid question which really needs to be addressed clearly from this point on.
iano writes:
And in order to have faith in a saviour I suppose one would need to recognise their need of a savior. I don't see where Adam expressed this need in word or deed.
For the record, many Christians do understand the following passage in Genesis as a promise from God that a Savior would come to redeem them from the serpent:
NIV writes:
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.
This is often refered to as something like the protoevangelium, or first gosepl, according to many mainline Christians.
This is a Catholic link which explains it in greater detail, breaking it down verse by verse:
GENESIS 3:15
THE PROTOEVANGELIUM OR "FIRST GOSPEL"
Please note that even though you will probably not accept the conclusions noted in regards to Mary (like Catholics, Orthodox and High Anglicans do), the general consenus among many mainline Christian groups is that the information found in Genesis 3:15 is a prophecy pointing toward the coming of Christ.
As such, it seems entirely possible to infer that Adam placed his faith in God and was expecting some kind of Messiah.
And, for the record, later passages in the Genesis account do explicitly indicate that men were calling upon God for things in their life:
NIV writes:
Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, "God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him." Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh.
At that time men began to call on the name of the LORD.
It seems highly probable that Adam was within this group. I see no reason to conclude he wasn't, especially since St. Paul himself speaks of Adam in such wise:
Romans 5:12-14 writes:
Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned - sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
iano writes:
It is not just what is applied but what it is applied to which forms the whole, I hold. A spanner applied to a crankshaft will turn the crankshaft. A spanner applied to a bolt with loosen a bolt. Same tool, same rotary action - different result. Sinless Adam/sinful man. The imparting of the Holy Spirit can't be shown to have equivilent purpose or result.
What exactly are you talking about here?
I'm not talking about sinless Adam/sinful man.
I'm talking about sinless Adam/sinless Jesus.
I thought I made it clear that we were starting with Adam, and comparing his indwelling of God's Spirit with Christ's indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
Maybe I wasn't clear on this part.
iano writes:
I would see the Holy Spirit operating in parallel ways in Old and New Testaments. But this discussion revolves around Holy Spirit at he pertained to a unique man, Adam and the rest of us.
*slaps forehead*
No. It doesn't.
We're first of all comparing Adam's indwelling to Christ's indwelling -- and we're trying to detemrmine if Adam had that Holy Spirit's indwelling or not.
I thought I'd made this clear.
iano writes:
The discussion is a preliminary basis for a discussion on a person (like me for instance) losing the Holy Spirit/salvation (or so I gathered. The area of interest is drawing parallels between the Spirits indwelling in me (who holds that this cannot be lost) with the 'indwelling' in Adam - who presumably lost the Holy Spirit. I argue that there are no parallels to be drawn between the two indwellings.
uh huh...
This discussion will come later.
We're staring with Adam...
iano writes:
No. I was saying that the Spirit as it pertained to Adam was given to a man who knew no sin. The Spirit indwelling in me was given to a man who did know sin (in the pre-born again state) and who does know sin (in so far as it is applicable in the post born-again state). In other words the Spirit as I have it is not the same as the way Adam had it. If the way I have it is described as indwelling and that is different to that which Adam had then Adam, whatever way he had the spirit, didn't have it as indwelling in the same way I have. Adam losing (assuming you hold that he did) cannot thus be used to suppose that I could lose. They are different things: crankshaft/bolt
What are you talking about? And what does this have to do with Adam and Christ? Do you agree that Adam had the Holy Spirit or not?
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-21-2005 10:50 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by iano, posted 12-21-2005 12:25 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by iano, posted 12-22-2005 5:49 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 43 of 59 (271599)
12-21-2005 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ramoss
12-21-2005 12:36 PM


Re: New Testament comments on the Old ARE Christian theology
Don't convict Saint Augustine.
Wisdom 2:23-24 writes:
For God formed man to be imperishable;
the image of his own nature he made him.
But by the envy of the devil,
death entered the world,
and they who are in his possession experience it.
For the record, according to Daniel J. Harrington, a date in the first century B.C.E. seems most likely for the preiod in which it was written, though any time from the second century B.C.E. to the first century C.E. is possible.
Either way, this predates Saint Augustine's thoughts considerably. And it may even be possible that it predates Christianity as whole by almost 150 years.
Now would you kindly refer to Faith's message found in message 41.
Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ramoss, posted 12-21-2005 12:36 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ramoss, posted 12-22-2005 3:41 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 46 of 59 (271810)
12-22-2005 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ramoss
12-22-2005 3:41 PM


Re: New Testament comments on the Old ARE Christian theology
Please note, I'm not claiming it to be of strictly Jewish origin. I certainly am not of the opinion that Solomon penned it.
However, even if the date of its composition were pushed to 100 C.E., it would still predate Saint Augustine by a couple of centuries -- and some church fathers before Saint Augustine apparently did quote the Wisdom of Solomon well before Saint Augustine came up with his own ideas of original sin as originally expressed by Saint Paul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ramoss, posted 12-22-2005 3:41 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ramoss, posted 12-22-2005 8:59 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 48 of 59 (271848)
12-22-2005 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ramoss
12-22-2005 8:59 PM


Re: New Testament comments on the Old ARE Christian theology
ramoss writes:
I am not going to argue that. It just is not very traditionally Jewish.. but definately has hellenistic influences , according to the source I saw....
I agree with you on this.
Interestingly, that was exactly what Saint Jerome thought when he first read it too -- he actually insisted on the Hellenistic character of the work, especially as regards the book's oratory. It's also interesting to note that this is probably the first recorded case of the application to a biblical book of the method of the history of literary genres.
ramoss writes:
Many religions influenced each other .. and this concept seems to have come more from the Greeks than the Jews.
Here's more information if you're interested...
Wisdom of Solomon
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-22-2005 10:18 PM
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-22-2005 10:20 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ramoss, posted 12-22-2005 8:59 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ramoss, posted 12-24-2005 2:35 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

  
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