Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   JAR's amazing theory of a Creator who doesn't Design (Faith & jar & invitees)
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 42 (271721)
12-22-2005 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
12-22-2005 11:52 AM


Re: Assuming Biblical God....
jar writes:
Perhaps you missed my reply in the earlier message. In case you did, here it is again.
Earlier you asked:
Haven't I shown that it is contradictory to your position that the creator does not design?
to which I replied:
No, IMHO you have not.
OK Jar. I see we have to trudge through this the hard and tedious way. To do this systematically and to keep it simple we need to deal with each segment of the catechism you support one at a time.
Here is what we need to address now before we move on.
Catechism Of Creation writes:
Genesis 1 teaches that the one true God calls the universe into existence, and all of creation responds to God’s call. The creation has order and structure. It is transfigured and reveals God’s presence, but it is natural, not divine. It is dependent upon its Creator for its continuing existence and for all of the powers and capacities it possesses. Each element is declared to be good and the whole of it very good.
Relative to creation, do you agree with your cited catechism that the creator calls and all creation responds? Since you seem to like to do flat out yes and no answers that would do just fine here.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 12-22-2005 11:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 12-22-2005 1:04 PM Buzsaw has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 42 (271722)
12-22-2005 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Buzsaw
12-22-2005 1:02 PM


Re: Assuming Biblical God....
Yes, but natural, not divine.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Buzsaw, posted 12-22-2005 1:02 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Admin, posted 12-22-2005 1:16 PM jar has replied
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 12-22-2005 1:57 PM jar has replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 33 of 42 (271730)
12-22-2005 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
12-22-2005 1:04 PM


Re: Assuming Biblical God....
jar writes:
Yes, but natural, not divine.
I don't know how to interpret this. If Buzsaw understands, fine, otherwise you might want to elaborate.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 12-22-2005 1:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 12-22-2005 1:31 PM Admin has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 42 (271732)
12-22-2005 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Admin
12-22-2005 1:16 PM


Clarification for Admin.
buz quoted a section of the Catechism of Creation reproduced below.
Genesis 1 teaches that the one true God calls the universe into existence, and all of creation responds to God’s call. The creation has order and structure. It is transfigured and reveals God’s presence, but it is natural, not divine. It is dependent upon its Creator for its continuing existence and for all of the powers and capacities it possesses. Each element is declared to be good and the whole of it very good.
buz then asked
buz writes:
Relative to creation, do you agree with your cited catechism that the creator calls and all creation responds?
My response was based on the highlighted parts from the quotation. That the Creator called the universe into existence but that the process of creation is natural, not divine.
We can learn of GOD's presence from that which was created, but what we see, the universe, the galaxies, the stars, the planets, the earth, life, mankind are all the results of those forces and systems that were the initial creation.
What we learn from Science; geology, archeology, genetics; are the hows. We are beginning to learn some of the rules. Only beginning, and much will be revised as we learn more. The Theory of Evolution is but one explanation of those natural systems we are struggling to understand.
The Catechism on Creation goes on to address that more fully in response to the question "What is biological evolution?"
Biological evolution means that living things change over time. A great variety and diversity of organisms have come into existence over the past four billion years from one or a few original life forms. All living things”bacteria, archaebacteria, protists, fungi, plants and animals, including human beings”are descendants of other life forms, most of which are extinct. The evidence for evolution shows that all life on earth is related and interconnected, and is often depicted as a great "Tree of Life." Evolution happens gradually, sometimes at a rapid rate and sometimes slowly, but never with discontinuities. Evolution happens because of natural selection; in the face of environmental pressures, some organisms will survive at higher rates than others. Charles Darwin was the first to bring together all these ideas. Scientific researchers since Darwin have refined and added to them, but never thrown out his basic theoretical framework.
Is that clearer?
edited to add the word explanation
This message has been edited by jar, 12-22-2005 12:36 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Admin, posted 12-22-2005 1:16 PM Admin has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 42 (271740)
12-22-2005 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
12-22-2005 1:04 PM


Re: Assuming Biblical God....
jar writes:
Yes, but natural, not divine.
But this is contradictory to the statement. If the creator calls and all creation responds, all creation then is functioning in response to a guiding/designing call, i.e. according to the preasure and purpose of the creator who is making the calls. (AbE: All creation is not responding to the 'call of nature'.) Thus we read about the creator, relative to the potter, in the scriptures who fashions/designs to suit his purpose and desire.
Btw, please stop whining about alleged whines! I am not your whining child!
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 12-22-2005 02:00 PM

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 12-22-2005 1:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 12-22-2005 2:11 PM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 42 (271746)
12-22-2005 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
12-22-2005 1:57 PM


Re: Assuming Biblical God....
How can it be contrary to the quotation when I highlighted the very section from the qutation that said exactly that?
Here it is once more for you.
Genesis 1 teaches that the one true God calls the universe into existence, and all of creation responds to God’s call. The creation has order and structure. It is transfigured and reveals God’s presence, but it is natural, not divine. It is dependent upon its Creator for its continuing existence and for all of the powers and capacities it possesses. Each element is declared to be good and the whole of it very good.
Another section of the Catechism goes into greater detail on "What evidence has nature provided to support biological evolution?"
There are three major areas of evidence: the fossil record, biogeography, and genetics.
Fossils of hundreds of thousands of now extinct species show that life has evolved from simpler to more complex forms over millions of years. Thousands of transitional fossils help us to understand how the changes took place. Scientists use techniques based on the rate at which radioactive elements decay to date fossils and the rock layers in which they are found. In this way layers of fossils from one part of the world can be related to fossils of a similar age from another continent. These studies, combined with comparing the structures of various fossilized creatures, provide evidence for the relationships over time among living things.
While paleontologists study fossils and their relationships over time, biogeographers study the relationships and changes in species from one place to another. The distribution of species provides clues to how they evolved. For centuries naturalists have noted that similar creatures living in separate locations show differences in appearance and behavior, particularly when they do not interbreed. The unique plants and animals of islands have provided some of the most dramatic examples of evolution. The finches of the Galapagos Islands that inspired Darwin are one famous example.
Studies in genetics provide the third major field of evidence. Genes carry instructions for making proteins, basic to all life. An analogy to language is helpful in explaining how genetics helps us understand evolution. Genes speak a universal language using only four chemical letters. The structure of the DNA molecule, which carries the genes, is identical in all life; that is, it uses the same grammar. But the arrangement and number of genes vary widely among species. Thus each species has its story. Individuals have different versions of that story. Similarities and differences in genetic make-up, then, help scientists identify how closely or distantly related individuals and species are.
Beginning in the twentieth century, genetic research has added tremendously to the knowledge gained from fossils and biogeography. Together they show that the diversity of life has evolved; it was not produced by a series of separate acts of creation.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 12-22-2005 1:57 PM Buzsaw has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 37 of 42 (271870)
12-22-2005 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
12-20-2005 12:19 PM


Re: where's your evidence?
Where's your evidence God exists at all? You say there is plenty of evidence that God had no idea what He was creating, in terms of the forms of life that would appear. Well, where is the evidence for God at all?
Moreover, why do you claim God can and will hear prayers and intervene in someone's life, even doing miracles, and yet insist that He no longer or never intervened or intervenes to create life?
You are totally inconsistent in your beliefs here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 12-20-2005 12:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 12-22-2005 11:54 PM randman has not replied
 Message 39 by AdminAsgara, posted 12-22-2005 11:57 PM randman has not replied
 Message 40 by Buzsaw, posted 12-23-2005 12:06 AM randman has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 42 (271876)
12-22-2005 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by randman
12-22-2005 11:46 PM


Re: where's your evidence?
Where's your evidence God exists at all?
There can be no proof that GOD exists. It's a belief, not scientific fact.
The rest of your post is Off Topic as usual.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by randman, posted 12-22-2005 11:46 PM randman has not replied

AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 39 of 42 (271878)
12-22-2005 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by randman
12-22-2005 11:46 PM


Re: where's your evidence?
I know you were invited in by faith earlier, but the thread was closed by general consent. It was reopened by request of buz and Moose opened it back in the Great Debate as a GD between Buz and Jar.
Please do not respond to this thread again until both parties request it be opened.

AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
  • General discussion of moderation procedures

  • Thread Reopen Requests

  • Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
  • New Members: to get an understanding of what makes great posts, check out:
  • "Post of the Month Forum"

  • "Columnist's Corner" Forum
  • See also Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC, and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting
    http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 37 by randman, posted 12-22-2005 11:46 PM randman has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 12-23-2005 12:11 AM AdminAsgara has not replied

    Buzsaw
    Inactive Member


    Message 40 of 42 (271882)
    12-23-2005 12:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 37 by randman
    12-22-2005 11:46 PM


    Re: where's your evidence?
    Hi Randman. So far as I'm concerned, if it's ok with Jar and with Admins, you and others are now welcome to participate. How about it, Jar and other admins? Can we open this up to all?

    The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 37 by randman, posted 12-22-2005 11:46 PM randman has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 42 by AdminNWR, posted 12-23-2005 12:16 AM Buzsaw has not replied

    Buzsaw
    Inactive Member


    Message 41 of 42 (271884)
    12-23-2005 12:11 AM
    Reply to: Message 39 by AdminAsgara
    12-22-2005 11:57 PM


    Re: where's your evidence?
    Hi Asgara. My apologies. I posted before seeing you were posting also. Otherwise I'd have addressed to you rather than Randman.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by AdminAsgara, posted 12-22-2005 11:57 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

    AdminNWR
    Inactive Member


    Message 42 of 42 (271885)
    12-23-2005 12:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 40 by Buzsaw
    12-23-2005 12:06 AM


    Closing this thread
    If you want an open discussion on this, I think it would be better to open a completely new thread with a clear statement of what is debated in the OP.
    This message has been edited by AdminNWR, 12-22-2005 11:16 PM


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by Buzsaw, posted 12-23-2005 12:06 AM Buzsaw has not replied

    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024