John could I talk to you?

No I love my individuality, God gave that to me. I do not fear eternal hell, for I know that "it is by grace we are saved, through faith". Nowhere does that say by grace through faith I lose who I am. It says that Through grace God would use me.On the blind faith thing it's not blind, there is a spiritual discernment there, which encompasses reason and knowledge rather than despite them.As far as whether I think I understand or know, that has to do with listening to the quiet voice instead of the chaotic one.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

Hi PE,
Thanks for the link but I was actually interested in something a bit different. The debate seemed to be centered on whether people with high IQ or a higher degree of education tend to be more self confident or boorish etc. than on average or whether the opposite is true.Cheers,
M

I couldn`t help but notice that the outcome, intelligent people usually don`t believe in religion , faded more and more as the timeline went on.
This seem to suggest that cultural beliefs in a specific time period has alot to say about the results .
And wouldn`t the fact that the last research ended somewhere in the sixties imply that most scientist have frowned upon the idea?
I`m also curious about the academic`s own world view, we all know how little significance this usually has on the way the tests are made, and thus their outcome.And finally, what where your intentions by that post.
I dont really believe that your motive would be to set yet another barrier between peoples values and preferences, or?
I certainly hope not.Sincerely Delshad

F: No I love my individuality, God gave that to me.I can't but help think of the Monty Python's Life of Brian scene where Brian addresses a crowd with, "You're all individuals". The entire crowd responds in unison, "Yes, we're all individuals" I'm sorry Funky, but I can't see anything positive in enslavement and lack of free thought.[This message has been edited by David unfamous, 12-18-2002]

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Originally posted by David unfamous:
F: No I love my individuality, God gave that to me.

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I can't but help think of the Monty Python's Life of Brian scene where Brian addresses a crowd with, "You're all individuals". The entire crowd responds in unison, "Yes, we're all individuals"

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I'm sorry Funky, but I can't anything positive in enslavement and lack of free thought.

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You are forgetting the one guy in the crowd who after everyone else yells "yes, we're all individuals"...says "I'm not"

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And finally, what where your intentions by that post.
I dont really believe that your motive would be to set yet another barrier between peoples values and preferences, or?
I certainly hope not.

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No I don't think that was my motive, although I'm not quite sure what you mean about me setting barriers. It was an interesting site I found which seemed to back earlier suggestions on this thread that high IQ people tended to lack faith. I was actually looking for a study done in the US which looked at religious affiliation by background and education level (similar to the Gallup Millennial survey) which I seem to remember seeing some time ago, but can't find now.Mind you, its curious that you seem opposed to the idea while forgiven, who is also religious, seemed to advocate it in the first place. Personally, "educated people are less likely to be religious" doesn't sound nearly as self-evident as "less educated people are more likely to be religious" to me, even though its logically equivalent. But I wouldn't use that as evidence to mean it was right not to believe in religion, anymore than I would say that people should all become Catholic as thats the world no 1 religion. No, there are plenty of other good reasons not to believe in religion PEedited for typos[This message has been edited by Primordial Egg, 12-18-2002]

D:

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And finally, what where your intentions by that post.
I dont really believe that your motive would be to set yet another barrier between peoples values and preferences, or?
I certainly hope not.

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No I don't think that was my motive, although I'm not quite sure what you mean about me setting barriers.Not that you have done it before, but that there is already enough of prejudism against religion in some societies.
And by posting a research like that , I fail to see the good that can come out of it.
I had even pointed out some flaws after I had critically analyzed the researches but you didn`t want to include that in your reply, why?PE:

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Mind you, its curious that you seem opposed to the idea while forgiven, who is also religious, seemed to advocate it in the first place. Personally, "educated people are less likely to be religious" doesn't sound nearly as self-evident as "less educated people are more likely to be religious" to me, even though its logically equivalent.

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The word religion, has a very broad field, and one`s definition of it isn`t like anothers.
For example, if you had made a research in ,Saudi Arabia, asking the people if they believed in Allah, then you would probably in 95% of the cases get the respond ,yes.( I picked Saudi Arabia because of its religious structure and its educated citizens, if you wished to point that out)
So tell me then, isn`t religious preference mostly cultural, or do you perhaps believe that the Arabs IQ are under average, if you do that,( which I highly doubt), then thats another story.Sincerely Delshad[This message has been edited by Delshad, 12-18-2002]

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Originally posted by Chara:

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Originally posted by schrafinator:

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the higher the iq, the more likely one is to appreciate his own wisdom... that's all it means

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I disagree. I have met far more arrogant idiots than I have arrogant intelligent people.

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In other words, you disagree based on personal experience? and I'm to take your word for that?

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Yes, it's based upon personal experience, and no, you don't have to take my word on it at all.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
[B]What I was trying to get at by the IQ question was that I don't thinkt he majority of the world population is or ever has been extremely bright. Is that agreeable?[/QUOTE]Well, it depends upon what you mean by "extremely bright".Is the world population extremely good at recognizing patterns and human face/expression recognition? Yes, we evolved to be very good at those things.Is the world population extremely good at logic? No, logical thought is not natural.

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I see that the scripture is criticized frequently under scrutiny by more "intelligent" people.

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That is not what I see at all. I think that many theologians are incredibly bright, intelligent people. (Episcopal Bishop Shelby Spongh is one I greatly admire).I think that the people who you are talking about simply come at the Bible without the assumption that it is true, as others do.

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It was thinking that maybe God in his wisdom purposely had his book written for the more average mind? God seems to constantly lean to the simpler people, the weak. Even in the choosing of king David, David was the youngest, weakest, smallest of all the brothers and God chose him. Probably because people who think themselves very wise already are less likely to listen to God's instruction.

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Eeeek, are you really wanting to go there? What you are saying is that God doesn't favor intelligent people, or maybe that you have to be less than bright to accept everything in the Bible.

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If the bible had been written in great scientific detail then the majority of people would not understand it's wisdom.

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That is why the Bible is not a scientific book, meant to be taken literally in any way, but a guidebook for how to live a good life.

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So it was written in such a way that those who were not as "wise" could understand it and that those who are "wiser" could see why it was written in such a way.

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That seems pretty convoluted.

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
No I love my individuality, God gave that to me. I do not fear eternal hell, for I know that "it is by grace we are saved, through faith". Nowhere does that say by grace through faith I lose who I am. It says that Through grace God would use me.

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On the blind faith thing it's not blind, there is a spiritual discernment there, which encompasses reason and knowledge rather than despite them.

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As far as whether I think I understand or know, that has to do with listening to the quiet voice instead of the chaotic one.

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But there are lots of people who believe, for example, that they have had contact with aliens, and even that aliens continue to communicate with them. They have exactly the same evidence for their experience as you do; personal conviction and emotional certainty.They believe thay are using reason and knowledge, too.Do you believe them?

Do you know that there is no other life out there somewhere? It's a pretty big place out there. ------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

That's the problem with the probability of alien visits. Space is big alright---too big. Hard to get from one place to another.

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Originally posted by robinrohan:
That's the problem with the probability of alien visits. Space is big alright---too big. Hard to get from one place to another.

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Assuming our concepts of physics are adequate, and I'd bet they are not (if the bet isn't cashed in for 200 years), this counts against alien VISITATION and verification or ET life, but counts for the chances that life exists elsewhere. More planets, more dice to roll; essentially.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:

But there are lots of people who believe, for example, that they have had contact with aliens, and even that aliens continue to communicate with them. They have exactly the same evidence for their experience as you do; personal conviction and emotional certainty.

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They believe thay are using reason and knowledge, too.

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Do you believe them?

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Do you know that there is no other life out there somewhere? It's a pretty big place out there.

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No, I don't know.Do you believe the people who say, with just as much or more conviction and belief that they are telling the truth about theiir reality as you, say that the God of your Bible exists, that they have been taken up into alien spacecraft and experimented on?

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Originally posted by schrafinator:

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:

But there are lots of people who believe, for example, that they have had contact with aliens, and even that aliens continue to communicate with them. They have exactly the same evidence for their experience as you do; personal conviction and emotional certainty.

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They believe thay are using reason and knowledge, too.

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Do you believe them?

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Do you know that there is no other life out there somewhere? It's a pretty big place out there.

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No, I don't know.

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Do you believe the people who say, with just as much or more conviction and belief that they are telling the truth about theiir reality as you, say that the God of your Bible exists, that they have been taken up into alien spacecraft and experimented on?

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Yes I believe them though I think they are quite possibly mislead as to what exactly happened to them during their experiences. *bracing for assault* I don't know what happened here, this thread has become useless to me, as to what I had started it for.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.