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Author Topic:   George Bush protecting your civil liberties by breaking them
Tal
Member (Idle past 3841 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 106 of 220 (271744)
12-22-2005 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Silent H
12-22-2005 11:51 AM


Re: Tal or other conservatives.
The problem that this shows is that the executive becomes in all ways a monarchy or dictatorship as long as the FEAR of war exists. And now that we have reduced war to terrorism, the FEAR of terrorism. Thus, as always, dictatorship put into effect and propagated through fear of the other by the public.

I'll take this first. Here is a list of terrorist attacks in the last 20ish years.

1979 - Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.

1982-1991 - Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.

1983 - April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 Marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.

Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.

1984 - Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.

1985 - April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.

June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.

Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.

Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.

1986 - April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.

April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.

1988 - Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.

1993 - Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.

1995 - Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.

1996 - June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

1998 - Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

2000 - Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

2001 - Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed.

Now, would you classify terrorism as just a fear, or a reality? I classify it as a reality.

Now, lets clear up if the President has the authority to to carry out electronic surveillance into private phone calls and e-mails.

President Bush's post- Sept. 11, 2001, authorization to the National Security Agency to carry out electronic surveillance into private phone calls and e-mails is consistent with court decisions and with the positions of the Justice Department under prior presidents.

What do you think Bush should be held accountable for, exactly? As far as oversight goes, I would think the Senate Select Comittee on Intelligence already does this.

Here is thier Juristiction:

Created pursuant to S.Res. 400, 94th Congress: to oversee and make continuing studies of the intelligence activities and programs of the United States Government, and to submit to the Senate appropriate proposals for legislation and report to the Senate concerning such intelligence activities and programs.

http://intelligence.senate.gov/juris.htm

That mechanism is already there.

This message has been edited by Tal, 12-22-2005 02:09 PM


"Damn. I could build a nuclear bomb, given the fissionable material, but I can't tame my computer." (1VB)Jerome - French Rocket Scientist
This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Silent H, posted 12-22-2005 11:51 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by FliesOnly, posted 12-22-2005 2:25 PM Tal has not yet responded
 Message 108 by Silent H, posted 12-22-2005 2:58 PM Tal has not yet responded
 Message 111 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2005 3:20 PM Tal has not yet responded
 Message 113 by arachnophilia, posted 12-22-2005 4:27 PM Tal has not yet responded
 Message 115 by jar, posted 12-22-2005 4:56 PM Tal has not yet responded
 Message 117 by Theodoric, posted 12-22-2005 7:04 PM Tal has not yet responded

    
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 2308 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 107 of 220 (271751)
12-22-2005 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Tal
12-22-2005 2:08 PM


Re: Tal or other conservatives.
Tal writes:

Now, would you classify terrorism as just a fear, or a reality? I classify it as a reality.

How does your list justify spying on US citizens without warrents?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Tal, posted 12-22-2005 2:08 PM Tal has not yet responded

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 3983 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 108 of 220 (271757)
12-22-2005 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Tal
12-22-2005 2:08 PM


Re: Tal or other conservatives.
Now, would you classify terrorism as just a fear, or a reality? I classify it as a reality.

Terrorism is real and must be faced with realism.

However, it is being used by some to scare the public into giving the govt, and specific members of the govt powers that they do not, or SHOULD not have.

You little list doesn't scare me Tal. The US is bigger than that. It needs to deal with those threats, yes. But it doesn't mean we need to throw away the rights we enjoy.

I am more frightened of a govt which does not recognize my rights, more than some assholes which might or might not engage in isolated incidents of terror.

Now, lets clear up if the President has the authority to to carry out electronic surveillance into private phone calls and e-mails.

I couldn't get to the link you gave (I don't have a "subscription"). Is there a reason I should believe it is any different than what has already been presented here already showing that in fact he has no definite right to do what he did, and that he himself said it would not be?

You still have not dealt with the fact that he himself said that to do so would be unConstitutional, and worse than that... he said he was not doing it.

What do you think Bush should be held accountable for, exactly? As far as oversight goes, I would think the Senate Select Comittee on Intelligence already does this.

Violating FISA as well as the Constitution. I've already stated this. I do not believe the oversight is adequate. Clearly something failed here as some on the Commitee were not happy.

That mechanism is already there.

Yes, the FISC. A judge is resigning from the FISC over the potential damage Bush has done for subsequent cases arising from the unreviewed warrants.

Are you incapable of forming your own opinion? Of discussing something based on your principles, rather than posting what someone else has to say?

Slavery was allowed by the govt for some time. It was upheld by administrations. It was brought to an end by people standing up for the underlying principles of freedom and human rights and democracy.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Tal, posted 12-22-2005 2:08 PM Tal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Theodoric, posted 12-22-2005 3:03 PM Silent H has not yet responded
 Message 110 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-22-2005 3:13 PM Silent H has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6264
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 109 of 220 (271760)
12-22-2005 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Silent H
12-22-2005 2:58 PM


Re: Tal or other conservatives.
The link Tal supplied is an opinion. It is supportive of the presidents view. Tal has a way of taking anything that supports his view as gospel. There are a lot of conservatives that are very against the view expressed in the Tribune article.

The funniest thing is who wrote the article

John Schmidt served under President Clinton from 1994 to 1997 as the associate attorney general of the United States.

They hate Clinton but are willing to use him and anything from his administration to justify themselves.

This message has been edited by Theodoric, 12-22-2005 02:05 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Silent H, posted 12-22-2005 2:58 PM Silent H has not yet responded

    
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3723
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 110 of 220 (271763)
12-22-2005 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Silent H
12-22-2005 2:58 PM


The main damage of terrorism
Holmes has said what I would like to have said myself, if I could only write a good message.

I will add, that I think the greatest harm that the terrorism events of 9/11 et all have caused, is that they have triggered the responses of the GWB administration and their supporters.

GWB is screwing up the US in ways that the terrorist could never do. And I think the terrorists are smart enough not to interfere with GWB's efforts.

Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Silent H, posted 12-22-2005 2:58 PM Silent H has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Theodoric, posted 12-22-2005 4:47 PM Minnemooseus has responded

    
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 220 (271765)
12-22-2005 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Tal
12-22-2005 2:08 PM


Re: Tal or other conservatives.
Here is a list of terrorist attacks in the last 20ish years.

Now, would you classify terrorism as just a fear, or a reality? I classify it as a reality.

If we assume the highest possible number of fatalities for each incident, it adds up to 3,924 dead over a 20 year span.

42,643 people died in motorvehicle accidents on American roads in 2003 alone. And this was the lowest number of fatalities for any year since the US began keeping records of road fatalities in 1979.

While terrorism is real, trying to paint it as something that should hold our lives in FEAR is just silly. Especially when you stand a much, much better chance of dying by crossing the street.


"I fail to comprehend your indignation, sir. I've simply made the logical deduction that you are a liar."
-Spock
This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Tal, posted 12-22-2005 2:08 PM Tal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Omnivorous, posted 12-22-2005 3:47 PM Dan Carroll has not yet responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1131 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 112 of 220 (271773)
12-22-2005 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Dan Carroll
12-22-2005 3:20 PM


Re: Tal or other conservatives.
Dan's Clever Alias writes:

If we assume the highest possible number of fatalities for each incident, it adds up to 3,924 dead over a 20 year span.

Another way to look at it, Dan, is that based on the Bush WH's own figures (30,000 Iraqi civilians dead, more than 2000 U.S. troops dead), 8 times as many people have died from Bush's incompetence and dishonesty as have died in 20 years of terrorism.

And let's see, the number of Al Qaeda terrorists in Iraq has gone from 0 to...well, a whole bunch, again according to the WH. If they protect us from Al Qaeda in very many more countries, Al Qaeda will rule the world.

I must say, that Yalie-legacy Bush kid does thnk big--dumb, but big.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2005 3:20 PM Dan Carroll has not yet responded

    
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 141 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 113 of 220 (271779)
12-22-2005 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Tal
12-22-2005 2:08 PM


a very short response from some very wise people
they who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security.

give me liberty, or give me death.

This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 12-22-2005 04:27 PM


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Tal, posted 12-22-2005 2:08 PM Tal has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6264
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 114 of 220 (271783)
12-22-2005 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Minnemooseus
12-22-2005 3:13 PM


Re: The main damage of terrorism
I said it before on this thread.

From post #27

President Bush has given the terrorists an overwhelming victory. He accuses his critics of waving a white flag and giving up. President Bush has become as effective as a fifth coulumn in the US. He has ineptly played into their hands and is actively helping to destroy the freedoms, liberties and way of life they so hate about the United States.

Every day more information comes out about him and other conservatives that have been laying loose and fast by the rules. I post every day about this rogues gallery on my blog.
Bruce's Ideas, Thoughts and Observations

I'd love to get peoples thoughts and ideas of what I have to say and what I choose to post about.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-22-2005 3:13 PM Minnemooseus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-22-2005 5:41 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 115 of 220 (271784)
12-22-2005 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Tal
12-22-2005 2:08 PM


Re: Tal or other conservatives.
Now, would you classify terrorism as just a fear, or a reality?

No one has said that terrorism is not real. What we have said is that this Administration has not done anything to lessen the potential of terrorism, has diverted resources that could be used to reduce the threat from terrorism, has lied about its reasons for the action it did take, has colored and filtered the avialable evidence in a typical example of willfull ignorance, has destroyed some of the basic foundations of our freedoms, may well have committed high crimes and misdemeanors and should be indicted.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Tal, posted 12-22-2005 2:08 PM Tal has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3723
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 116 of 220 (271795)
12-22-2005 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Theodoric
12-22-2005 4:47 PM


Re: The main damage of terrorism
I did read that message 27, although I tend to have a short attention span and the mind may have wandered before I got to the end. Also have a crappy memory.

...destroy the freedoms, liberties and way of life they so hate about the United States.

My impression is that Osama and the such are not concerned about our freedoms and liberties, other than how such may influence how we execute our "way of life". We use and abuse much of the rest of the world to further our own greedy self-interests. To a great degree, much of the rest of the world, including terrorists, have much to legitimately hate about the U.S, and GWB has only added to it.

But this is getting rather badly off-topic.

Perhaps you would be up to starting a new topic on those "kind and benevolent" organizations such as the World Trade Organization (Center???) and World Bank. Through economic (and supporting military) actions, the U.S. and others have a substantial history of inflicting socio/economic terrorism/warfare on peoples of the world.

There is always the big question "Do evil acts by one party justify evil acts by others"? Osama apparently thinks yes, and is he totally wrong?

Moose

ps: Listening to the Dead Kennedys "best of" collection "Give Me Convenience Or Give Me Death". Right now, the war is good for the economy rant "Kinky Sex Makes The World Go Round".

Added by edit: Tune available at http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=8801&starttime=0:54:15 (require RealAudio).

This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 12-22-2005 06:10 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Theodoric, posted 12-22-2005 4:47 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6264
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 117 of 220 (271817)
12-22-2005 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Tal
12-22-2005 2:08 PM


Re: Tal or other conservatives.
Tal,

Read the reality of the op-ed piece you say justifies Bush. Do you understand what op-ed means. It is an opinion. It is not hard fact or law. OPINION.

The facts behind the op-ed piece Tal referenced

President Bush's post- Sept. 11, 2001, authorization to the National Security Agency to carry out electronic surveillance into private phone calls and e-mails is consistent with court decisions and with the positions of the Justice Department under prior presidents.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Tal, posted 12-22-2005 2:08 PM Tal has not yet responded

    
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3062 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 118 of 220 (271875)
12-22-2005 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Theodoric
12-20-2005 11:01 AM


Re: War or No, Bush has too much power
What did you want me to say about MI ultra or echelon? They exist? Yes, but legally to obtain and use info from them a search warrant is needed. We are discussing legality not capability. Another fine distinction you seem unable to grasp.

Your post speaks volumes about your ignorance if you think MK-Ultra's activities were strictly legal, or Echelon's. Fact is as well that Clinton used Echelon to spy on people like Ron Brown to make sure they wouldn't talk, but let's just be honest here. You aren't really against the gov spying on people, are you? If you were, you'd have been against Clinton and Carter spying on Americans.

Right?

You are against a Republican spying on Americans. Frankly, I am too, but I am just as against the beaurocracy and dems doing this, and so I can see that all the big hoopla is pretty much a big fat lie, suggesting Bush's actions are something new, when they are not.

And still you do not reply to my original request for back up on your claims. So typical.

I didn't really need to waste time backing them up at the time since it would soon be all over the news. Hopefully by now, you have read some of the news reports.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Theodoric, posted 12-20-2005 11:01 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Silent H, posted 12-23-2005 11:03 AM randman has responded
 Message 120 by Theodoric, posted 12-23-2005 11:13 AM randman has responded

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 3983 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 119 of 220 (271984)
12-23-2005 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by randman
12-22-2005 11:53 PM


Re: War or No, Bush has too much power
Frankly, I am too, but I am just as against the beaurocracy and dems doing this, and so I can see that all the big hoopla is pretty much a big fat lie, suggesting Bush's actions are something new, when they are not.

Look if you were really against it then you wouldn't be discussing anything except what is going on. Instead you keep reaching back to appeal to past incidents to try and set in come context to make it look not so bad.

It is or it is not. It is that simple.

I am just as much against Dems doing it as Reps, and I haven't seen anybody in here yet trying to give Dems a big pass. The only thing I have seen is Reps saying that anyone who is critical of Bush is a Dem who doesn't really care about the issue, proof being your assertion they'd give Dems a pass on the same thing.

Prove you care about the issue by addressing what this singular person is doing right now.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by randman, posted 12-22-2005 11:53 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by randman, posted 12-23-2005 4:34 PM Silent H has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6264
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 120 of 220 (271986)
12-23-2005 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by randman
12-22-2005 11:53 PM


Re: War or No, Bush has too much power
Fact is as well that Clinton used Echelon to spy on people like Ron Brown to make sure they wouldn't talk

Then he had Brown killed in a plane crash?
Is there proof or is this some sort of right wing conspiracy theory?
I suppose you have proof that the Clintons had Vince Foster killed too.

But that is neither here or there. I have given no Dems a pass on spying. If something had come out like is coming out now, I would have been strongly against. Probably more than I am now, because it is worse to be deceived by people you want to trust.

The argument that other presidents did this or that holds no water. Reps are so quick to jump on Dems, but refuse to face the fact their people are crooks and criminals.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by randman, posted 12-22-2005 11:53 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by randman, posted 12-23-2005 4:36 PM Theodoric has responded

    
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