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Author Topic:   Works, Faith, & Salvation (for Iano)
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 76 of 106 (271907)
12-23-2005 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by robinrohan
12-23-2005 1:23 AM


Re: Eternal Life in John
OK, I guess I misread you then, or you weren't as clear as I'd thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by robinrohan, posted 12-23-2005 1:23 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by robinrohan, posted 12-23-2005 1:33 AM Faith has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 106 (271909)
12-23-2005 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
12-23-2005 1:25 AM


Re: Eternal Life in John
OK, I guess I misread you then, or you weren't as clear as I'd thought.
I've been thinking about all this lately. I've been wondering why some people are so "spiritual" and others are not. It's not like I'm a bad person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 12-23-2005 1:25 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 12-23-2005 1:38 AM robinrohan has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 78 of 106 (271910)
12-23-2005 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by robinrohan
12-23-2005 1:33 AM


Re: Eternal Life in John
I suppose it's a matter of definitions and you are using the term in a different sense, but I think you ARE spiritual, in a certain sense that some people (but not Christians) are. Your very nihilism is spiritual. People who aren't spiritual don't think about such things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by robinrohan, posted 12-23-2005 1:33 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by robinrohan, posted 12-23-2005 1:43 AM Faith has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 106 (271911)
12-23-2005 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Faith
12-23-2005 1:38 AM


Re: Eternal Life in John
Your very nihilism is spiritual. People who aren't spiritual don't think about such things.
Very kind of you to say so.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 12-23-2005 12:43 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 12-23-2005 1:38 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 12-23-2005 1:49 AM robinrohan has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 80 of 106 (271912)
12-23-2005 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by robinrohan
12-23-2005 1:43 AM


Re: Eternal Life in John
Being serious, not kind. What did you mean by "spiritual" anyway?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by robinrohan, posted 12-23-2005 1:43 AM robinrohan has replied

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 Message 81 by robinrohan, posted 12-23-2005 2:01 AM Faith has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 106 (271913)
12-23-2005 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
12-23-2005 1:49 AM


Re: Eternal Life in John
I just meant, concerned with the big picture. Life is a bitch, Faith. It's not easy being me. But somebody has to do it.
But I appreciate just communicating with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 12-23-2005 1:49 AM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 82 of 106 (271916)
12-23-2005 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by robinrohan
12-23-2005 2:01 AM


Robin OT spirituality
I can't think you really mean that you aren't concerned with the big picture, but in any case I'll have to find out some other time as I have to get offline now. Hm. Seems to me I'm easy enough to communicate with for anybody who really wants to. And we're way off topic anyway. Guess we should be in Chat or you should email me. Whatever. Nite.

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 Message 81 by robinrohan, posted 12-23-2005 2:01 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 83 of 106 (271937)
12-23-2005 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by truthlover
12-22-2005 11:23 PM


Re: Eternal Life in John
Thank you Truthlover
Both posts helped to give me a visual handle on John's usage in the present.
You explained the mystical very well.
Thanks again, Teach.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 84 of 106 (271978)
12-23-2005 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by truthlover
12-22-2005 8:45 AM


Re: Growth and Saturation of Eternal Life
Me: ”My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you.” (Galatians 4:19).
You: No, I don't think this has anything to do with the growth of eternal life. I went through verses on eternal life, every one that's used by Paul in the NT, and I showed you that he speaks of eternal life as a future reward very clearly in most of them.
Sure it does. The analogy of labor and birth remind one of the formation of the natural life of a human baby. This spiritual labor is for the formation of the eternal life in the Galatians.
If not what would you suggest is being formed in the Galatian believers if not the eternal life which is Christ - ”I am . the life” (John 14:6) ?
When Paul says ”When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory” (Col. 3:4) is ”Christ our life” something else besides the eternal life?
Christ the eternal life must be formed in the Galatian believers. The more of their being is filled with that life the more Christ is formed in them.
Can you to prove that God gives to Christian believers two eternal lives - one which is “eternal life” and another which is “Christ our life?” This would be ridiculous.
Now, you are giving verses on growth. That's fine, but surely you didn't think I don't believe in spiritual growth, do you? None of the verses you gave mention the growth of eternal life in a person, and thus they don't apply to Gal 6:7-9.
What is spiritual growth then? Learning more knowledge of the Bible is spiritual growth?
Spiritual growth is the growth of the eternal life within our created life so that more and more our created life is mingled with Christ as our life.
To mingled two things together is to combine them in such a way that the two components remain distinguishable in the combination. The more life grows in the believers the more they are mingled with Christ.
How this relates to Galatians 6:7-8 concerns whether a believers will be rewarded with the enjoyment of the mature growth of life in the millennial kingdom or whether, having sown instead to his fallen nature, he will reap the negative effects of his refusal to mature.
Any reward or punishment is temporary and cannot last more than 1,000 years. Galatians 6:7-8 could be accompanied with 1 Corinthians 3:14-17 where Paul speaks of the examination of the work each believer has done on the foundation of Christ which he has laid for the church:
If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”
The fleshy and fleshly carnal believers in Corinth are like those in Galatians who sow to the flesh. They will reap corruption. And in the examination before Jesus Christ instead of a reward they will reap punishment for the corruption. Yet they themselves will be saved as through fire.
These must be set aside to mature while the rewarded brothers and sisters who sowed to the Spirit and reaped the maturity of life enjoy that life in the millennial kingdom.
By the time of the end of the millennial kingdom, the sluggish and disciplined ones have also matured and all enjoy the gift of the endless age of the new heaven and the new earth.
"In due season" means at some appropriate time in the future. So this verse says that at some appropriate time in the future we will reap eternal life if we don't grow tired of doing good, which will be accomplished, of course, by continually sowing to the Spirit (and growing in it, I agree).
It does say that in the future we will enjoy reaping eternal life. But the Spirit is this eternal life TODAY. And we must sow to the Spirit of life today. So in another sense we believers have the eternal life and in the future will be rewarded (in the millennial kingdom) with how we allow the life to develop and grow and mature within us.
Now to demonstrate that the Spirit is the eternal life today I would refer to these verses:
”For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus . ” (Rom. 8:2)
The Holy Spirit is the divine ZOE of God - the eternal life.
”It is the Spirit who gives life . ” (John 6:63)
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of life (Rom. 8:2) who gives life during the church age.
”Who has made us able ministers of a new covenant, . ministers of the Spirit for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life” (See 2 Cor. 3:6)
The apostles in the church age are ministers of the Spirit of life, who unlike the letter that kills, gives eternal life. And that He does in the church age.
”The last Adam became a life giving Spirit”
Jesus Christ who is the life (John 14:6; 11:25) came that the believers could have life and have it abundantly (John 10:10). He gives life by becoming the ”life giving Spirit” and giving Himself to us in the church age.
The Spirit Who is life (Rom. 8:2) is Christ, the last Adam Who became the life giving Spirit to give eternal life during the church age.
Finally, the Spirit of eternal life is given to the disciples in the present age to be a pledge and a foretaste of more of the same to come in the future:
” . you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance . ” (Eph. 1:14)
”He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge” (2 Cor. 1:22)
”Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given to us the Spirit as a pledge” (2 Cor. 5:5)
Since we Christians are given the “eternal Spirit” (Heb. 9:14) Who is the “Spirit of [ZOE] life (Rom. 8:2) as a foretaste; a seal; a pledge; a “downpayment” so to speak, we have present day appetizer of a fuller enjoyment to come in the future. And this appetizer is of eternal life.
Concerning Second Peter 1:5-11 you remark:
Here there is growth, but there is not growth in the possession of an entrance into the everlasting kingdom of Y'shua. You grow in other things, and if you have those things and they are increasing then you will be supplied, as a result, with an entrance into the kingdom.
I agree with you this passages shows growth for obtaining a rich entrance into the kingdom in the future.
But I would draw to your attention other matters which we should not neglect also.
Firstly, in the same epistle Peter says that the disciples have ”become partakers of the divine nature” (1:4) in the church age.
The divine nature contains also the eternal life. And Peter does not say that the divine nature will only be enjoyed in the future. By believing in the promises we become ”partakers of the divine nature. It is only through this divine nature that we have the power to escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. And this escaping must be done in the church age.
In your Galatians passage sowing to the Spirit would correspond closely to escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust. We escape by the Holy Spirit. We escape by the divine nature. Both the Holy Spirit and the divine nature are the sphere and realm of eternal life.
Secondly, the everlasting kingdom of our Jesus Christ (or Y’shua if you prefer) is in the church age too, and continues through the millennial age and on into eternity. So those who are faithfully growing in the foretaste of the kingdom of Christ today, will have a rich entrance into the reward of a fuller taste of the kingdom of Christ in the future.
It is clear that this kingdom of Christ is something that the believers have been transferred into upon receiving the gospel:
”Giving thanks to the Father . Who delivered us out of the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love . ” (See Col. 1:12,13)
”For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Rom. 14:17)
”For the kingdom of God is not in speech but in power” (1 Cor. 4:20)
These and many other verses show that the kingdom of Christ and of God is to be experienced as a foretaste today. Those disciplined to live a kingdom life will enjoy the reward of a fuller enjoyment of the kingdom of Christ in the millennial age. They, having matured in life, will have a rich entrance into the manifestation of the kingdom.
Today the kingdom is somewhat hidden. In the future that which is hidden will be manifested to the world. And its enjoyment is a reward to those who in the church age were faithful to live in the foretaste of the kingdom.
The passage from 2 Peter means that eternal life has filled up your personality. Instead of you enjoying life only in a limited way this life has grown and saturated your whole personality. So your entrance is rich into the reward of the millennial kingdom.
Those who spent their Christian lives sowing to the flesh will not have a rich entrance. Some will be punished and sent to the outer darkness for 1,000 years to mature in that life. At the end of that millennial kingdom period all are matured and enjoy the gift of the eternal life in the new heaven and new earth discribed in Revelation 21 and 22. This eternal age follows the 1,000 year age of the millennial reward given to the believers who cooperated by sowing unto the Spirit.
I will cut the length of this post here. I want to go back and read the rest of your comments.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-23-2005 10:21 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by truthlover, posted 12-22-2005 8:45 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by truthlover, posted 12-23-2005 12:13 PM jaywill has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 85 of 106 (272004)
12-23-2005 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by jaywill
12-23-2005 10:19 AM


Re: Growth and Saturation of Eternal Life
What is spiritual growth then? Learning more knowledge of the Bible is spiritual growth?
I answered this in post 63 already. I'm thinking that my post 63 still suffices as an answer to your whole post, so I'm just going to leave it at that rather than basically go over the same material again. So, I guess I'll just rest my case and figure I've had my say.
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by jaywill, posted 12-23-2005 10:19 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 86 of 106 (272098)
12-23-2005 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by truthlover
12-22-2005 8:45 AM


Re: Growth and Saturation of Eternal Life
Truthlover,
Me:
All who believe that Jesus is the Son of God have eternal life.
This is only true to John, not Paul. You can't use Paul's verses in this way.
Yes we can. All these verses are from Paul’s letters.
”When Christ our life is manifested . “ (Col. 3:4).
Christ being ours is our divine and eternal life.
”The last Adam became a life giving Spirit” (1 Cor. 15:45)
Having Christ, having the Holy Spirit, eternal life is being supplied to us.
”For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed me . ” (Rom. 8:2)
Within the Person of Christ Jesus is the realm of the law of eternal life freeing Paul from his experience in the previous chapter 7. Such freeing is taking place in the church age.
” . that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body” (2 Cor. 4:10)
The divine and eternal life of Jesus, in the church age, was being manifested in the suffering bodies of the apostles.
The association of eternal life with Christ is a absolute in Paul’s writings as it is in John’s.
John always uses eternal life as a present possession, and Paul never uses it as a present possession.
I think that this is a characteristic of the New Testament and not of John solely.
In speaking about regeneration Paul says ”the spirit is life because of righteousness” (Rom. 8:10).
That is that the human spirit of man who is justified becomes the eternal life. Since the Lord Jesus is with the human spirit of the born again person, the eternal life is with his spirit.
”The Lord be with your spirit” (2 Tim. 4:22)
The Spirit which is the Spirit of life is joined with the human spirit in the new birth to create ”one spirit”. That is one united and mingled human spirit / Holy Spirit blending:
”He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit” (1 Cor .6:17)
Since the Lord is our righteousness, for Him to be with our spirit is for our spirit to be eternal life because of righteousness:
”the spirit is life because of righteousness” (Rom. 8:10).
The apostles suffer and die daily so that eternal life might work in the Christians in the church in Corinth:
”So then death operates in us but life in you” (2 Cor. 4:12)
And this eternal life which is operating in the Corinthians is none other than Jesus Christ Himself:
”Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?” (2 Cor. 13:5)
The connection between the ZOE life of God and Jesus’ person is as one in Paul’s letters as it is in John’s writings. This is the New Testament.
So whether my explanation is right, you still have to deal with what Paul wrote, not mix Paul and John because you wish they could mix. Mixing Paul and John's usage of eternal life is part of the reason people get so confused on this subject.
Each brother had his portion of the ministry of the New Testament. They were not at odds with one another. They were both preaching and ministering the same thing. They may have used different expressions. But the net result is the same. Christ is the life of God, the eternal life. And He is to be enjoyed today as well as in the future.
So here's my explanation: John says, "This life is in his Son. He who has the Son has the life, and he who does not have the Son does not have the life." John practically equated eternal life with Y'shua. He talked about the Word of Life that was from the beginning
Yes John does. But the apostle Paul ALSO tells the Philippians that they should hold forth ”the word of life”:
”Holding forth the word of life, so that I may have a boast in the day of Christ that I did not run in vain nor labor in vain” (Phil. 2:16)
being manifested, then seen by the apostles, and then he says, "we show you that eternal life, which was with the father, and was manifested to us."
Paul certainly teaches the same thing albiet with different words:
” . that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body” (2 Cor. 4:10)
” . even now Christ will be magnified in my body whether through life or through death. For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain.” (Phil. 1:20,21)
”The things which you have also learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things; and the God of peace will be with you” (Phil. 4:9)
”And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction with joy of the Holy Spirit, So that you became a pattern . ” (1 Thess. 1:6,7)
Here the example of the apostles living in the realm of eternal life was seen and practiced by the Thessalonians who in turn became a pattern for others to follow.
And finally Paul reminds his junior co-worker Timothy that he, Paul, manifested to Timothy the living of this life. And Timothy should pass this testimony on to others.
”And the things which you have heard from me through many witnesses, these commit to faithful men, who will be competent to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2)
Paul is not talking about doctrines alone. He is talking about his entire manner of life. He lived in the sphere and realm of Christ the eternal life. What he ministered was what he was and what he lived. He tells Timothy to live likewise and teach other men also who themselves can do the same.
This every bit the same as John saying that the apostles report to the believers the eternal life which was with the Father. And you and I should do the same.
That eternal life, according to John, belongs to the Son and is in the Son. If we have the Son we have eternal life. If we don't, we don't have eternal life. Only John speaks of eternal life this way.
I have shown you above that Paul also speaks that way. And besides, even if John alone spoke that way (which he does not) it is still the unshakable truth of the gospel of God.
You can’t be suggesting that if only John spoke that way then we needn’t believe or pay attention.
Matthew and Peter use it as a future reward,
Grossly overstated as to be entirely false.
Peter exhorts couples in the church life to be heirs together of the grace of life:
”Husbands, in like manner dwell together with them according to knowledge, as with the weaker, female vessel, assigning honor to them as also fellow heirs of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered” (1 Peter 3:7)
Furthermore since the grace is of life. To grow in grace is to grow in the eternal life in the church age. Which thing Peter exhorts us to do:
”But grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Pet. 3:18)
Jesus Christ is the life. And the grace of Christ is ”the grace of life (1 Peter 3:7)
but John was very mystical,
I agree. But Paul and Peter spoke the same things.
and he was also combatting gnostic teachings, which separated Christ,
I agree here too. But Paul was in battle against philosophies too. You can see that clearly in Colossians. And in that book he writes that Christ is our life (Col. 3:4).
It is not wise for you to fall prey to the idea of creating a dichotomy of Paul verses John. This is not wise at all.
We have eternal life now, because we have the Son. At the judgment, however, the reward of eternal life (or immortality, as Paul calls it in Rom 2:7) is given to us. Then we have eternal life, because we have eternal life, not just because we have the Son. The eternal life will be in us, not just in the Son.
The eternal life is in the believers from the moment they are born of God.
That is why I spoke of the growth and the saturation of our beingswith this life. And that concept you opposed.
As a substitute you have this strange idea that the Christ the believers have today is not the eternal life. Since when did Christ cease to be the eternal life?
What we have has not yet grown to the point of swallowing up all of our mortality. But it will:
” . that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life” (2 Cor. 5:4)
We today have a foretaste, a pledge, a sealing, an earnest of what we will have a much fuller and complete taste of in the future - eternal life.
Yes, Paul, too, believed that one receives the life of Y'shua when he or she receives Y'shua. But he never calls it eternal life. Eternal life or immortality is always a future reward to him, which was a hope that was to be "obtained," and clearly, the means to obtaining this reward was to persevere in good works. . .
Paul does not use the "Zoe" of Y'shua and "Zoe aionos" interchangeably, and we're talking about Paul's writings, not yours.
The distinction between Paul’s mininstry and John’s is that to their professions. Paul was a making tents. John was mending nets. John’s ministry is a mending ministry.
When the damage was done to the gospel in the first century John in his old age came to recover and repair like one mending torn nets. His is a mending ministry. So his emphasis has this kind of taste. He returns to the bottom line. But he does not deviate from the ministry of Paul.
Actually there is only one New Testament ministry. And both Paul and John took part in it.
You want to make “eternal life” only a matter of everlasting duration. And this is only one aspect of eternal life.
The word “eternal” denotes not only duration of time, which is everlasting, without endm but also the quality, which is absolutely perfect and complete, without shortage or defect. Such an expression emphasizes the eternal nature of the divine life, the life of the eternal God. This life is also eternal with respect to its sphere. It denotes time, space, and quality.
As to the element of time, this life will last forever. You wrongly want to restrict “eternal life” to this everlasting aspect. But “eternal life” as to space is vast, unlimited. As to quality, eternal life is perfect and complete, without defect or shortage. The sphere or field of eternal life encompasses the whole universe. It covers the entire field of life.
The very history of the church testifies that this eternal life is not only everlasting. It is indestructible and able to overcome any obstacle. It branches over every barrier and cannot be stopped by suffering or persecution.
This eternal life was manifested in the apostles and in the martyrs and down through church history withstanding attacts from every side.
To restrict eternal life to only the aspect of “everlasting” and relegate it only to the future is no doubt a leavening of the pure word of the gospel.
It is also foolish for you to try to draw some kind of wedge between the revelation of John and that of Paul.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-23-2005 03:22 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by truthlover, posted 12-22-2005 8:45 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by truthlover, posted 12-23-2005 5:48 PM jaywill has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 87 of 106 (272197)
12-23-2005 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by jaywill
12-23-2005 3:19 PM


Re: Growth and Saturation of Eternal Life
In order not to let the point get lost in all those words:
I ran through all the verses where Paul uses eternal life; every one. You can quote all sorts of other verses and say that he means the same thing when he mentions the life of Christ, but it's very clear that he uses them differently, despite your arguments that they have to be the same.
Eternal life is a reward at the judgment to Paul. It's different than receiving the life of Christ for the power to live on earth.
Again, I'll simply reference my post 63.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by jaywill, posted 12-23-2005 3:19 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by jaywill, posted 12-23-2005 6:32 PM truthlover has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 88 of 106 (272210)
12-23-2005 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by truthlover
12-23-2005 5:48 PM


Re: Growth and Saturation of Eternal Life
I ran through all the verses where Paul uses eternal life; every one. You can quote all sorts of other verses and say that he means the same thing when he mentions the life of Christ, but it's very clear that he uses them differently, despite your arguments that they have to be the same.
Eternal life is a reward at the judgment to Paul. It's different than receiving the life of Christ for the power to live on earth.
I don't agree that mentioning eternal life as reward is verses mentioning living eternal life today. But either way you really have no case to contradict John on ANY grounds.
The fact of the matter is that whether you agree with Paul or not, the apostle John says that the eternal life is Christ. Whatever Paul wrote, whenever Paul wrote, or whatever phrasing Paul wrote does not change this fact. So it really doesn't matter if you can't see him saying the same thing.
Even if Paul said nothing and did not write 13 books of the New Testament as he did, what John taught is not nullified - the Son is the eternal life. That does not change.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-23-2005 06:33 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-23-2005 06:33 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by truthlover, posted 12-23-2005 5:48 PM truthlover has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 89 of 106 (272393)
12-24-2005 8:49 AM


John and Paul both warn of future consquences for succeeding or failing to practice living in the Holy Spirit.
Here is Paul:
"Do not be deceived: God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
For he who sows unto his own flesh will reap corruption of the flesh, but he who sows unto the Spirit will of the Spirit reap eternal life" (Gal. 6:7,8)
Here is John:
"And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming." (1 John 2:28)
Paul speaks of sowing to the Spirit.
John speaks of abiding in Him.
Paul speaks of reaping corruption.
John speaks of being "put to shame"
Here it is not a matter of feeling ashamed. It has nothing to do with the believer's feeling. If he has not practiced to abide in the Lord, when Christ comes, he will be "put to shame from Him"
This being put to shame from Christ is temporary for the Christian. It does not effect their eternal redemption.
Paul says that God is not mocked. John says that such a disobedient one will be put to shame.
There is this difference. Reaping corruption is reaping the characteristics of the fallen flesh. This occurs before the Lord returns.
Being put to shame from the Lord is the reward for thus reaping corruption. When He comes instead of the maturity of life coming from a life of abiding in the Lord, the believers has only the corruption that he has reaped by sowing to the flesh. His reward is to be put to shame from the Lord.
Someone may point out that Paul explicitly mentions reaping eternal life and John does not.
By way of strong implication John mentions eternal life also in the following verses to 1 John 2:28. For example he goes on to say "Behold what manner of love the Father has given us, that we should be called the children of God; and we are ...and it has not yet been manifested what we will be. We know that when He is manifested, we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is." (See 3:1,2)
Now are we the children of God with the life of God. But when He is manifested if we have practiced to abide in Him we will be like Him. it has not yet appeared what this will be. But it will be glorious. This is none other that a fuller enjoyment of the eternal life we have today as Christians.
We are the children of the eternal God. We shall be like His Son if we abide in this life faithfully today. We have eternal life (1 John 5:12). We will be rewarded with a fuller enjoyment of eternal life when He is manifested. But we should abide in Him so that we have boldness before Him.
There is no reason to draw a false dichotomy with John on one side and Paul on the other.
The Apostle John says that the life is eternal life - " ...God gave to us eternal life and THIS LIFE is in His Son. He who has the Son has the LIFE [i.e. eternal life]" (1 John 5:12)
Therefore when the Apostle Paul speaks of LIFE (ZOE LIFE) he is speaking of eternal life - i.e. "shall reap eternal life" and "... you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end, eternal life" and "the spirit is life because of righteousness".
How can Paul speak of eternal life today in experience and eternal life as the issue and reward of a spiritual living?
It is because the Christian today has a foretaste of more to come. He has a pledge of what is to come. He has a earnest of what is to come. He has an appetizer of the fuller course to come in the future.
What he enjoys today, and to what he should be attentive to, he will enjoy in a fuller way when Christ comes back to reward or discipline His servants.
" ... you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance ..." (Eph. 1:13,14)
The Spirit is the "Spirit of life" (Rom. 8:2). And the Spirit is also eternal - "the eternal Spirit" (Heb. 9:14). Therefore the eternal Spirit as our pledge is the eternal life.
Other verses show that the Spirit today is the earnest or "downpayment" of the eternal life to come in the future:
"He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge" (2 Cor. 1:22)
"Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a pledge" (2 Cor. 5:5)
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-24-2005 08:57 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by truthlover, posted 12-26-2005 12:28 AM jaywill has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 90 of 106 (272739)
12-26-2005 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by jaywill
12-24-2005 8:49 AM


There is no reason to draw a false dichotomy with John on one side and Paul on the other.
There is every reason to point out the difference in usage between John and Paul. (I think you're misusing the term dichotomy here, too, which I think means to make them contradictory or opposed, which I did not do, but instead gave an explanation of what common idea the both of them were expressing.)
The fact is, that combining the usages of John and Paul regarding the phrase eternal life gives rise to the dancing around and explaining away of verses so common to Protestants, just as you are doing here. The fact is, despite all your quoting of verses, and all your definitions and arguments, even if you were right the only result would be to make Paul's letters silly.
quote:
Behold, God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows, that will he reap. He who sows to the flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. He who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap everlasting life. Let us not grow weary, then, in doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
Ok, let's assume that you can actually make this say that if you continue to do good you will reap everlasting life on an ongoing basis during this life. Standing alone, I'll admit you could take this passage this way, though it would not be the normal way to read it.
Now let's back up one chapter to Gal 5:19-21, where Paul says that if you practice the works of the flesh you will not inherit the kingdom of God. Do you have the kingdom of God growing in you, too, on an ongoing basis?
Now, rather than list any more such verses, let me just say that you probably know the whole list of "if" verses, and warning verses that say Paul might be disqualified, the Sardisians won't walk with him in white without overcoming, etc.
Trying to fit John's use of eternal life into Paul's letters produces the battles between the eternal security folks and the you-can-lose-it folks, all of them having verses they use and verses they have to do doctrinal dances on. They can't just read and believe what's written; they have to do "exegesis" and explain this exceptionally difficult book, the Bible.
I don't find it that way at all. I look at Paul's usage of eternal life, and I read him for what he said. I look at John's, and I read him for what he said. And I create no dichotomy at all, but an understanding of what both said and how they both agree, in such a way that no doctrinal dances are necessary at all.
Then, not surprisingly, when I do so, I find that I am reading the Bible in such a way that it agrees with the universal view of the church on such issues for the first four centuries of it's existence.
So the reason for noticing John and Paul's different usage is to understand what Paul is saying. When you do this, the result is not only that Paul agrees with John, but that Paul completely agrees with James, something that Martin Luther considered impossible and offered his doctorate degree to anyone who could reconcile Paul and James.
In fact, let me ask you two questions.
1.) Do you believe James when he says that a man is not justified by faith alone?
2.) (Assuming you agree with Rom 3:28 without explanation), how do you explain James 2:24, which is James statement that people are justified by works?
I don't have to explain either. James is talking about redemption as a whole, which begins by a work of faith and ends at a judgment of works, and Paul is talking about just the entrance into justification, which does indeed occur by faith only. How do you explain them, because it is this "contradiction," between Rom 3:28 and Jam 2:24, and so many other "contradictions" like them that prompt me to say it is very necessary to note Paul and John's different usage of eternal life, so that you can correctly understand what Paul's saying, and quit seeing him as contradicting his contemporaries and co-workers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jaywill, posted 12-24-2005 8:49 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by jaywill, posted 12-26-2005 2:06 AM truthlover has replied

  
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