EvC Forum: Steps toward loss and restoration of Salvation

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Topic: Steps toward loss and restoration of Salvation

Mr. Ex Nihilo

Member (Idle past 1362 days)

Posts: 712

Joined: 04-12-2005

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Message 49 of 59 (272343)
12-24-2005 3:13 AM

Reply to: Message 44 by iano
12-22-2005 5:49 AM

Re: Spirit indwelling in Adam

iano writes:

So as there isn't even the merest shadow of a doubt. Yes Adam had the Holy Spirit - as it pertained to him.

I'll note that this is a sharp reversal of your formal position which lead to this very question. If I recall correctly, you seemed to be stressing Adam did not have the Holy Spirit at all.

Just to make this clear, now you're saying he did?

If so, is it ok to move on to exactly what happened as a result of Adam's sin?

I believe that physical death came to Adam as a result of his sin.

I'm willing to explain why if you wish me too. I don't think "judgment" necessarilly strictly implies "damnation" as the same word is also used in a favorable light for those who are "judged" favorably at the end.

You beleive that spiritual death came to Adam -- implying damnation, correct? If so, could you point out the Scriptures which indicate this?

For this part I suspect that both of us will be quoting the same Scriptural passages. However, on a closer inspection, I suspect that key words like "damnation" will be missing from your "proof texts" -- whereas key words like "death" will be found in the very same "proof texts" you quote in favor of my position.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 44 by iano, posted 12-22-2005 5:49 AM		iano has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 51 by ramoss, posted 12-24-2005 2:41 PM	Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied
	Message 54 by iano, posted 01-04-2006 10:59 AM	Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo

Member (Idle past 1362 days)

Posts: 712

Joined: 04-12-2005

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Message 53 of 59 (272501)
12-24-2005 3:25 PM

Reply to: Message 52 by Faith
12-24-2005 2:47 PM

Re: Spirit indwelling in Adam

ramoss writes:

That implys he did not eat from the tree of life yet.

Faith writes:

It could imply that, or it could imply that they were accustomed to eating from that tree as long as they were in God's good graces, but when they fell it became dangerous to eat from it as it would only confirm them in their evil sin nature forever.

Since we seem to be determined to talk about this I will admit that my own personal view was that Adam and Eve had not yet partaken in the tree of life. In this sense, the tree of life was going to be the potential element, something akin to some biological agent which would multiply their telomeres and prolong them into their eternal life after they had passed the test (so to speak).

According to the University of Utah, telomeres have been compared with the plastic tips on shoelaces because they prevent chromosome ends from fraying and sticking to each other, which would scramble an organism's genetic information to cause cancer, other diseases or death.

Yet, each time a cell divides, the telomeres get shorter. When they get too short, the cell no longer can divide and becomes inactive or "senescent" or dies. This process is associated with aging, cancer and a higher risk of death. So telomeres also have been compared with a bomb fuse.

Using this analogy, it seems to me that the tree of life would've been the agent that somehow prevented the telomeres from fraying, staying the same length after division, effectively giving the consumer of the fruit of the tree access to perpetual life (or eternal life, as the Scriptures call it).

My own view is that the Apocalypse of St. John the Divine actually alludes to this future perpetual life as follows:

NIV writes:

On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

Technically speaking, I agree with Faith in some respects. In my own view, God withheld Adam and Eve from partaking from the tree of life due to their sinful state after their "fall from grace".

Perhaps unlike Faith, I don't believe that God withheld the tree of life as a punishment at all. When someone points to this as a source of damnation, I persoanlly suspect they're missing the bigger picture.

I believe that God withheld the tree of life as a way of protecting Adam and Eve until they were ready for the tree of life. The question of damnation, in this sense, shouldn't even be brought as far as I can tell. God did it so that Adamn and Eve would not become trapped in their "sins" forever. Physical death, in this sense, was a blessing in disguise -- and we should thank him that he allowed this to happen to us (because the alternative would be horrifying).

That's my $0.02 Canadian anyway.

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-24-2005 08:15 PM

This message is a reply to:
	Message 52 by Faith, posted 12-24-2005 2:47 PM		Faith has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo

Member (Idle past 1362 days)

Posts: 712

Joined: 04-12-2005

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Message 55 of 59 (275936)
01-05-2006 12:37 AM

Reply to: Message 54 by iano
01-04-2006 10:59 AM

Re: Spirit indwelling in Adam

iano writes:

A reversal?. Not really.

Yes. Really.

At least that's how it appears to me.

This was from our previous discussion:

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

Adam was created perfect from the beginning. His default position seems to be starting from the vantage point of having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit -- yet he still fails and leads all people to experience physical death from then on.

iano writes:

I disagree. There is no evidence of indwelling of Spirit as regards Adam. Given the purpose of indwelling of the Spirit: to lead and instruct in the way of righteousness and to intercede with the Father on our behalf - I would say that this view doesn't fit. Adam had two things to deal with as a blank slate. The command of God and the deceit of satan. The choice was his own.

So here you're saying Adam is a blank slate, correct?

However, within this thread we're in now you noted the following:

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

Then exactly what Spirit was breathed into Adam by God?

Do you know, according to standard Christian theology, of any other Spirit of God which creates in man a clean heart -- and a state of innocence like we find in Adam -- a Spirit other than the Holy Spirit?

iano writes:

Having read some of your links I'm not sure that the word 'exactly' can be easily applied. I agree that God breathed something of himself into man which made him in his image and likeness but the biblical material available is too limited to tell us precisely what was involved. I would agree that it was Gods Spirit that entered man. But how that took effect on man I do not know.

So here you agree that God breathed something "into" Adam, correct?

When we read further we read...

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

So what other Spirit would God breath into Adam if not the Holy Spirit?

Is God's Spirit not the Holy Spirit?

iano writes:

Sorry, yes of course it was the Holy Spirit.

As far as I can tell, it seems to me that you've eventually admitted that God breathed the Holy Spirit into Adam.

So, before we go any further, do you agree that Adam had the Holy Spirit "in him" or not?
______________________________________________

Edit: If we can agree that Adam had the Spirit's indwelling, then I'd like to move to the next step -- how did Adam lose the Spirit's indwelling -- or did he?

I posted this in another thread directing it to Faith -- but I think it fairly well sums up some of my thoughts on Adam and Eve and fits very well within the framework of this discussion:

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

My own thoughts were that God created Adam and Eve with the default position of being led by the Spirit -- essentially trusting God. Therefore, if they only trusted God's words, they would continue to move in the default motion according to God's will.

Even so, even if this is the case, it seems to me that they wouldn't be "automations" simply because they were led by the Spirit. Within the parameters of their actions they could still make many different choices, each guided by the Spirit's motion -- such as loving each other, eating food, partaking in fellowship with one another, etc.

In this sense, I'm not trying to suggest that Adam and Eve had no choices laid out before them. They could certainly choose from a variety of different paths all guided by the Spirit -- such as being a shepherd, or some kind of agricultural work, or even perhaps some kind of crastman, etc.

In other words, as the Scriptures quite plainly states, whatever you do, do it for the Lord. It comes by his Spirit

What would be restricted from their "default actions" would be anything which essentially broke the laws written upon the hearts of all people -- the commandments against lying, stealing or coveting for example.

So, to clarify this example, if one were to be a shepherd, that's a fine choice according to the freedom they have within the Spirit's motion -- they just wouldn't break the commandments when being a shepherd because that would go against the Spirit's motion.

As a default motion in the Spirit, so long as they trusted God, they would effectively continue to move in God's Spirit no matter what actions they might choose to do.

That they were not automations seems to be fairly evident by the fact that they could apparently choose to not obey the Spirit at any given time -- effectively falling out of God's grace. In fact, in my own opinion anyway, it seems to me that Adam and Eve had already sinned well before they ever partook in the tree of the knowlege of good and evil.

Many people have speculated as to the reasons why God would have left Adam and Eve alone in the Garden. They think, "Why on earth would God leave them alone with the serpent?"

However, I would like to point out that, according to the Scriptures, God's eyes are apparently too pure to look on evil; he apparently cannot tolerate wrong. If he left, it seems to me that it was because Adam and Eve were already coveting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil well before they ate from it.

Isaiah 59:2 planely states, "But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear."

It seems resonable to me that God left Adam and Eve because iniquity was already found within them -- and since God cannot tolerate this his Spirit left their presence. In short, their iniquities had effectively separated them from God -- and they were no longer moving by God's Spirit during this time.

Many people have speculated at the meaning as to exactly what the tree of knowledge represented. For me the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is actually symbolic of the serpent that was "guarding" the tree. However, instead of "knowledge" I would prefer to use the word "experience".

In other words, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil might be better translated as the tree of experiencing good and evil -- with one half of the experience being something that they had formerly "known" about by the natural world around them but had not directly "experienced" in their own lives.

It's kind of like, in my opinion, watching children tragically starving on a Worldvision commercial -- but not having ever really known was it was like to actually be starving for food in real life. In other words, it seems to me that they were very much aware of the "knowledge" that things could go wrong around them -- and were very aware that this could happen to themselves -- but they never directly "experienced" the bad things they knew of.

In this sense, it seems to me that God allowed them just enough knowledge to know what could go wrong without them having to directly suffer the consequences of doing wrong themselves.

Or, in other words, it seems to me that it was a matter of trusting what God said over what they were tempting themselves to do.

If they simply continued to trust God (the default position), then they would be moved by the Spirit to immediately partake in the tree of life before the temptation to eat from the tree of "experiencing" good and evil took over. In short, they would have passed the test -- and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would have been cut off from therein.

If, however, they failed to trust God (the alternative position), then they would be moved by their own spirit (breaking the Spirit's motion within them) to eventually partake in the tree of "experiencing" good and evil before the Spirit's motion to eat from the tree of life was completed in them. In short, they would have failed the test, effectively cutting themselves off from the tree of life -- and according to the Scriptures, they did.

If we can agree that Adam had the Spirit's indwelling, then please let me know your thoughts on my understanding of "the fall" quoted above. I suspect that there are many things they we do agree upon -- and some things we probably do not.

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-05-2006 12:53 AM

This message is a reply to:
	Message 54 by iano, posted 01-04-2006 10:59 AM		iano has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 56 by iano, posted 01-05-2006 5:27 AM		Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo

Member (Idle past 1362 days)

Posts: 712

Joined: 04-12-2005

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Message 57 of 59 (276257)
01-06-2006 12:02 AM

Reply to: Message 56 by iano
01-05-2006 5:27 AM

The Spirit of Creation...

iano writes:

I disagree. There is no evidence of indwelling of Spirit as regards Adam.

Follow up...

iano writes:

The reason I disagreed with you was your choice of terminology. Indwelling is a term which is applied to believers.

Where in the Christian Scriptures can you show me a passage which speaks in this manner -- one that cannot be similarly displayed in the Hebrew Scriptures?

iano writes:

The actions of the Spirit associated with indwelling are well described.

What are they and where are they?

Can any of them not be correlated with believers within the Hebrew Scriptures?

iano writes:

The term indwelling cannot be used of Adam because his is a different case. He was not a sinner when he recieved the Spirit.

But neither was Christ a sinner when he received the Spirit.

Remember our starting point: sinless Adam / sinless Christ...

iano writes:

Nor was the Spirits action prior to his sin the same as in a sinner, for example.

How so?

iano writes:

The Spirit can act within a person who is not saved to - in order to convict them of their sin.

But the Spirit can also act within a person who is saved too - the Spirit can also convict the saved of their sin as well.

iano writes:

This is not indwelling, yet it is the same Spirit working.

It seems to me to be the same effect within both.

iano writes:

What effect or purpose the Spirit had in relation to Adam is not the same as the effect or purpose of the Spirit on a believer by indwelling.

*sigh*

Remember: Sinless Adam / Sinless Christ

iano writes:

That is what I object to then and now.

You're still getting ahead here.

Looking ahead, I've seen no reason to conclude that Adam didn't have the Holy Spirit's indwelling. The mechanisms seem to be the same -- the Spirit went into Adam just as the Spirit went into Christ. The examples I've already displayed seem to show the Spirit doing the same actions in both -- both believers and unbelievers seem to be convicted of thier sin by the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, the Spirit in both cases seem to be from God himself -- and producing similar gifts of the Spirit: prophecy for example is strong theme within both the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures (and the Christian Scriptures even seem to be enunciating quite strongly the prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures were uttering by the power of the Holy Spirit).

What else is there to note?

If you're claiming that only Christians have the Spirit's indwelling, then at least provide the Scriptural passages which indicate this.

iano writes:

Unless of course, equivilency between what Adam had and what I, for instance, have, is shown.

BUT I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT EQUIVILENCY BETWEEN YOU AND ADAM.

REMEMBER: SINLESS ADAM / SINLESS CHRIST.

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

So, before we go any further, do you agree that Adam had the Holy Spirit "in him" or not?

iano writes:

I have already agreed. You can call it what you like, have, indwelling, in him - whatever - so long as you don't assume the above Adam/believer equivilency at some point.

Fine.

Since you seem to be determined to skip over and simply not discuss sinless Adam / sinless Christ, let's get into the discussion of sinless Adam /sinful believer.

I see no reason to assume any difference based on what I've read and presented so far. There is, however, some kind of weird inversion happening here.

In fact, oddly enough, Adam starts off perfect with the Spirit's indwelling -- and then clearly falls from grace.

On the other hand, sinful man starts off imperfect and only later receive's the Spirit's indwelling -- and then it's assumed, oddly enough, that they can never fall from grace.

Based on your assumptions, why is it that something which starts of "perfect with the Spirit's indwelling" is more capable of failing than something which starts off "imperfect and is initially without the Spirit's indwelling"?

Scriptures please.

iano writes:

This has not yet been established. For instance, if you show that Adam lost the spirits indwelling as a result of his sin, this in no way infers a believer can lose the spirits indwelling.

It seems a fairly reasonable conclusion to me -- because there are plenty of passages which do warn the Christian believer to not fall away from the faith.

I may not necessarilly agree with all these passage below. However, for example, let's get some feed-back on these passages here:

Apostasy, Falling Away

Here's another link:

Can a Christian Fall Away From Christ and Be Lost?

And here's another one:

SALVATION

iano writes:

This on the basis that you are comparing apples and pears.

Sound's like it's all apples to me.

iano writes:

I don't know if this is your tack - I just give it as an example

Agreed?

I don't exactly understand what you're saying here.

iano writes:

Oops...a meeting to go to. Will come back

I'll print off your piece and have a think about it Mr X. My first impression however is that it is necessarily speculative given the lack of information available as to the precise workings of the Spirit in Adam. This will, I think, cause a problem should we ever come to the holy spirit in the believer and any possibility of a believer losing the holy spirit - if that is indeed our end goal in this discussion. A couple of speculative thoughts of my own for now

For the record, I don't believe that you will ever loose the Holy Spirit iano. Of this we are most certainly in agreement.

However, the rest of what you've said below assumes so many things.

iano writes:

Firstly I don't see any need for the 'leading' by the holy spirit prior to A&E's sinning. Adam and Eve had no sinful nature for a start and failing the single commandment that God gave there was nothing they could do that was wrong. They couldn't lie, cheat, steal or do anything to offend God.

Exactly how literal are you reading this story?

Doesn't the thought to sin proceed the action of sinning?

Are you saying that Adam and Eve didn't even realize they were doing something wrong until after they ate from the tree?

iano writes:

They were allowed anything (bar one thing) in the Garden after all - which might help to support that view.

No. They weren't, for example, allowed to lie, steal or kill either.

iano writes:

Although sin was in the world there was nothing available to it which would allow it to express itself in man.

Did you even read what I said before?

iano writes:

If sin could be considered a force, then it is need of a lever, in the form of the Law, in order to achieve anything (Romans tells us how sin uses the law in this fashion) Without a means of application, force is useless. And there was only one law. "Don't eat that fruit". That was the only lever available to sin. This is the second reason why I think the there was no need for the spirits leading in a general, everyday sense.

And you were accusing me of making Adam and Eve into automations? You seem to be suggesting that Adam and Eve had absolutely no free will except in response to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

iano writes:

So. Bar for one way, Adam and Eve could not sin. IOW, every choice they made was the right one. You don't need to lead someone if any direction they take is the right one. They could make their own choices, name the animals any way they wanted to, for example - and it would be all fine with God.

No one does anything good except by the power of the Holy Spirit iano.

*scratches head*

How can you even suggest that Adam and Eve had the capacity to do good without the Holy Spirit guiding them -- and then turn around and give other people a hard time about any doctrine which suggests that man can do good without the Holy Spirit?

Or, expressed differently, how can you suggest that Adam and Eve were created "saved" yet "without" the Holy Spirit and then turn around and say that no one is "saved without" the Holy Spirit?

Furthermore, if you're trying to suggest that Adam and Eve were not created "saved", then that means that you think that God created them "damned" or "neutral" even through the Hebrew Scriptures say that everything was created "good".

Or, you seem to be saying that Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong in the first place (since they had no Spirit to convict them of right from wrong in your view) -- so God effectively made two lumps of clay with no free-will, called them humans, and effectively predestined them to be slammed against the "tree of knowledge" so that he could turn around and blame them for not knowing right from wrong -- which is exactly the way he made them in the first place?

wow...my head hurts.

Edit: yuck!

i'm going to politely step back from this discussion because I really don't understand what you're trying to say here...

If you could clarify exactly what you mean, it would be much appreciated.

God bless you iano.

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-06-2006 12:29 AM

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-07-2006 04:07 AM

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 03-19-2006 02:05 AM

This message is a reply to:
	Message 56 by iano, posted 01-05-2006 5:27 AM		iano has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 58 by iano, posted 01-06-2006 4:05 PM		Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo

Member (Idle past 1362 days)

Posts: 712

Joined: 04-12-2005

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Message 59 of 59 (276532)
01-06-2006 9:50 PM

Reply to: Message 58 by iano
01-06-2006 4:05 PM

Re: The Spirit of Creation...

iano writes:

The purpose of the discussion is to discuss possible equivilency - not presume it. If it is equivilency between Adam/Jesus that you want to discuss then lets. Presuming you do, I'll deal with Spirit in Adam/Jesus and equivilency between them inyour post(s).

Ok...let's get into this right proper.

First of all, what exactly is there to think that there is not equivalency between the two examples?

Second of all, since the Spirit seems to be doing the same thing both before and after Christ, it seems rather safe to assume that the same effects are being produced in both situations.

But since you want to argue this point let's discuss a little bit from "your" angle here.

iano writes:

ADAM VS CHRIST

Actually, I'd say it's Adam compared to Christ...or Adam contrasted to Christ...but not Adam vs. Christ.

Mr. Ex nihilo writes:

The mechanisms seem to be the same -- the Spirit went into Adam just as the Spirit went into Christ.

iano writes:

Firstly the spirit was breathed into Adam. It alighted on Christ. The mechanisms seem different.

Actually, the Spirit was in Christ from his conception iano. In fact, Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit if I recall correctly. Furthermore, according to traditional Christian thought, Christ was around before his conception anyway -- because his "incarnation" is simply viewed as his temporal time-space placement within his mortal human form. Being true God and true man, you can't get much more "in" the Spirit than Jesus -- because, according to John 4:24, God is spirit.

God is Spirit iano.

Are you suggesting that the Spirit was not "in" Christ before his baptism? Or, stated differently, are you trying to suggest that Jesus was not God the Son in human flesh?

This message is a reply to:
	Message 58 by iano, posted 01-06-2006 4:05 PM		iano has not replied

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