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Author | Topic: Nature and the fall of man | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
robinrohan Inactive Member |
There are some Christians who hold that before the fall of man nature was different from what we see today. Animals were not wild but tame and peaceful, and they did not eat each other. There were no diseases and there were no natural disasters. This was the condition of nature in Eden. However, when man sinned and was turned out of Eden, nature changed and became what we see today, in which disasters and diseases are common, and animals eat each other.
So this view explains that the reason for human suffering due to events in nature is that man brought such a state of affairs on himself. It is all the fault of mankind. Some Christians do not, I think, hold this view. If one believes in evolution, for example, I would think it would not be possible to hold the view that nature changed in this way. So my question is for those Christians who do not hold the view that nature changed in the way I have described. If the current state of nature is not due to the Fall, then what is it due to? Why does God permit these terrible natural events to occur?
{For the record, this topic was promoted from message 6 of the PNT version. - Adminnemooseus} This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-26-2005 01:37 PM
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Animals were not wild but tame and peaceful, and they did not eat each other. There were no diseases and there were no natural disasters. I must presume that God had included some efective birth control program in his creation. Otherwise all that perfection would start to really pile up. Moose
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
As one of those Christians, LOL, let me give this a try.
First, while there are some assertions of some kind of Fall in parts of the NT, when looking at the source material, Genesis, there is nothing that would suggest either a Fall, some earlier perfect nature or that anything changed. It's simply not to be found there. It appears to me that you have two questions; first "If the current state of nature is not due to the Fall, then what is it due to?" and second,"Why does God permit these terrible natural events to occur?" The current state of Nature doesn't seem to be any different than at any other time of history. I can see no indications that anything has changed except from a human-centric position, things are somewhat better than they have ever been before. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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nwr Member Posts: 6411 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
According to this wikipedia entry:
Most Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement Churches, such as the Churches of Christ, Christian Churches, and other Congregational Churches of the same origin, reject the notion of original sin, believing only in the sins for which men and women are personally responsible. Adam and Eve did bring sin into the world by introducing disobedience, and as a result the concept spread; however, sin itself is an action, and not something that one can inherit. The wikipedia entry on the restoration movement indicates that these churches range from fundamentalist to liberal. It thus seems likely that there are fundamentalist churches who do not accept "the fall".
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nwr Member Posts: 6411 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Animals were not wild but tame and peaceful, and they did not eat each other. There were no diseases and there were no natural disasters. This was the condition of nature in Eden.
Perhaps we could assume this about Eden. But I cannot find any basis for assuming that such unusual conditions existed elsewhere on earth. While there is some weak biblical support for the idea of the fall, as it affected human souls, the idea that there were no meat eaters, no diseases and no natural disasters on earth strikes me as an invented theology, a 20th century invention intended to explain away some of the problems of YEC theology.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Although your question is not addressed to those who do believe in the Fall, just for the sake of stating that position, as a baseline or something, here's
The Longer Westminster Catechism on the subject. See from Question 17 on. And here's The Shorter Catechism with long footnotes of scriptural support. Q. 19 describes the spiritual and physical consequences of the Fall. A couple of links on the history of the Catechism:
Wikipedia, and
The complete report on the Westminster Assembly; see Chapter 5. A brief history of the Catechism. {Turns out this link only goes to a registration page for the Britannica} {ABE to add better historical refs than the Britannica} This message has been edited by Faith, 12-28-2005 05:00 PM This message has been edited by Faith, 12-28-2005 05:02 PM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
It appears to me that you have two questions; first "If the current state of nature is not due to the Fall, then what is it due to?" and second,"Why does God permit these terrible natural events to occur?" And your answer to the second question?
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4925 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
nwr, come on man, the Fall is a very old Christian and Jewish concept. Anyone barely educated in this stuff knows that. Original sin was written about by Augustine, Paul the apostle, the Reformers, etc,...long before evolution.
Paul flat out states death entered the world through Adam. This message has been edited by randman, 12-26-2005 04:20 PM
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nwr Member Posts: 6411 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
nwr, come on man, the Fall is a very old Christian and Jewish concept. Anyone barely educated in this stuff knows that. Original sin was written about by Augustine, Paul the apostle, the Reformers, etc,...long before evolution.
Did Augustine write about "Animals were not wild but tame and peaceful, and they did not eat each other"?
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4925 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
I think he did say something along those lines, but I never like Augustine and preferred not to spend any more time reading him than was necessary.
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4136 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
the problem is you are wrong, the jews never believed in original sin, thats a christian concept, they only believed that man screwed up and was kicked out of eden, not that we some how inherent sin, this is a false concept
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nwr Member Posts: 6411 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
randman writes:
That's a pretty weak statement. I think he did say something along those lines, ... My claim was that the part about "animals were not wild but tame and peaceful, and they did not eat each other" is 20th century. I was certainly not challenging the long tradition, within Christianity, of a doctrine of original sin. Given the weakness of your response I shall take it that, at least for the present, my claim stands uncontested.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
a 20th century invention intended to explain away some of the problems of YEC theology. What about those other Christians, the ones I am addressing. How do they explain away nature?
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
"Why does God permit these terrible natural events to occur?" I'm not completely sure what it is that you're talking about. But I'll take a stab and if you think I'm off on a tangent, you can help me out. I'm not sure there are terrible natural events. There are events. The events are Natural. Whether or not the events are good, bad or neutral depends on the perspective of the observer. I discussed this in great depth in the thread Message 1 with Gilgamesh. Change is the norm. It is the result of the Universe GOD created. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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nwr Member Posts: 6411 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
If your cat scratches your valuable antique furniture, you don't accuse the cat of sin. You simply accept that the cat does not know better.
We do know better, as a consequence of human consciousness and free will. And I suggest that is what the Adam and Eve story is really about. It is an ancient fable that attempts to explain our consciousness and our free will.
If the current state of nature is not due to the Fall, then what is it due to?
The current state of nature, including sinfulness, mistakes, accidents, disasters, is the price of having free will and human consciousness. Who is to say that a world with consciousness and free will is not more perfect than a world containing only mindless zombies? It isn't up to us to dictate standards of perfection to God.
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