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Author Topic:   Nature and the fall of man
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 300 (272970)
12-26-2005 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
12-26-2005 6:50 PM


The events are Natural.
Well, God set up nature, so He's ultimately responsible, even if He's a hands-off God. So if He set up nature, he set up indirectly all those disasters that befall people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 12-26-2005 6:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 12-26-2005 7:18 PM robinrohan has replied
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 17 of 300 (272972)
12-26-2005 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
12-26-2005 1:20 PM


why does god let natural disasters happen?
hmm. the nile floods so that the ground can be replenished. fires rampage through florida and california so the conifers can reproduce and the pest plants (the ground cover crap like palmettos) can be cleared out. nature has a cycle of warming and cooling and flooding and burning and wind-blow and such because it makes the earth renew. most animals manage to know about these things and go to safe places. sure, some die, but many live.
as to disease, bacteria are living things too and deserve their chance at life just like leaches and other parisites. just because you think it's wrong doesn't make it wrong. the world is finite. all must die. that's the way of the world. rock is swallowed by the planet and melted then spewed out of a volcano and becomes rock again. so too the world must be reborn.
the only reason these are 'disasters' is that humans are so interested in their own well-being as to ignore the well-being of the earth. we restrict and prevent fires and the ancient redwoods are soon to pass away. we block natural floods and our farmlands go barren and require artificial fertilizers which poison our waters.
we scream about these terrible things but pay no mind to the way they make the whole earth new. we are so dependant on consistency and stability that the cycles of the earth terrify us.
why does god allow terrible things to happen? because they aren't terrible. they are oprecious and amazing. just because you're not smart enough to watch the animals as they evacuate before a tsunami...
and really, what's so terrible about a nice, juicy steak... for me or a lion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 12-26-2005 1:20 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by robinrohan, posted 12-26-2005 7:06 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 300 (272976)
12-26-2005 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by macaroniandcheese
12-26-2005 7:02 PM


why does god allow terrible things to happen? because they aren't terrible
You didn't mention birth defects. I guess they aren't terrible either--just "amazing."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-26-2005 7:02 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 19 of 300 (272981)
12-26-2005 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by robinrohan
12-26-2005 7:06 PM


i was discussing natural disasters. the simple statement that god didn't create a flawless being with flawless dna is something else entirely.
birth defects. well. if we are evolving, then that's part of the deal. and if people are stupid and drink or smoke or do drugs or lick christmas lights (read the package) then they get a messed up kid. life is fragile and shifting. birth defects lead to death in the wild. so would asthma. think about how we have overcome natural selection and how 'great' that is for us and how much better we are than god because we save so many babies from dying.
how about genocide, war, etc. well. people are fucking nasty.

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 300 (272989)
12-26-2005 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by robinrohan
12-26-2005 6:58 PM


Again, you are taking a human centric and very shallow view of events, and turning GOD into a very small and pitiable creature.
Well, God set up nature, so He's ultimately responsible, even if He's a hands-off God. So if He set up nature, he set up indirectly all those disasters that befall people.
I don't think you had time enough to read all 300+ messages in the thread I linked to, or even just the direct exchanges between myself and Gilgamesh on that very subject. But let me try to give you a few examples to see if I can explain my point of view.
A female mosquito bites a human. The human gets milaria. The mosquito gets a meal and so can reproduce. From the human's point of view that is a tragedy. From the mosquito's point of view it was a successful event. From the point of view of nearly everything else in the universe, it was simply neutral.
Some 65 thousand years ago a meteor crashed to earth a few hundreds of miles from where I live. The impact caused devestation around the world. The result was bad for those dinosaurs that died out, good for those that evolved into birds, opened niches that let mammals evolve and eventually lead to humans.
I happen to believe in a Good GOD, one that loves everything equally. The system he set up is perfect. Life goes on and has done so for billions of years that we know about.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by robinrohan, posted 12-26-2005 6:58 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 4:27 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 300 (272993)
12-26-2005 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by robinrohan
12-26-2005 6:58 PM


duplicate post, see above. Sorry.
This message has been edited by jar, 12-28-2005 12:58 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Admin
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Message 22 of 300 (273015)
12-26-2005 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
12-26-2005 7:21 PM


Test post...

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 23 of 300 (273019)
12-26-2005 8:07 PM


Thread moved here from the Faith and Belief forum.

Admin
Director
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Message 24 of 300 (273020)
12-26-2005 8:11 PM


Thread moved here from the Practice Makes Perfect forum.

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 25 of 300 (273021)
12-26-2005 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Admin
12-26-2005 8:11 PM


Test Post...
AbE: All is well, continue debating...
This message has been edited by Admin, 12-26-2005 08:12 PM

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 300 (273139)
12-27-2005 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
12-26-2005 7:18 PM


A female mosquito bites a human. The human gets milaria. The mosquito gets a meal and so can reproduce. From the human's point of view that is a tragedy. From the mosquito's point of view it was a successful event. From the point of view of nearly everything else in the universe, it was simply neutral
So if I get cancer, that's bad for me but good for the cancer, which after all, has a right to live too.
If a baby is born with a severe birth defect, that's bad for the baby, but good for . . . good for. . .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 12-26-2005 7:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 12-27-2005 4:41 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 32 by purpledawn, posted 12-27-2005 9:23 AM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 33 by jar, posted 12-27-2005 9:45 AM robinrohan has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 27 of 300 (273142)
12-27-2005 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by robinrohan
12-27-2005 4:27 AM


You keep zeroing right in on it. Fun to watch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 4:27 AM robinrohan has replied

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 Message 28 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 4:50 AM Faith has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 300 (273143)
12-27-2005 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
12-27-2005 4:41 AM


You keep zeroing right in on it. Fun to watch
Well, everything's perfect. I'm just too human-centric and me-centric to see it.
God's in his heaven, all's right with the world.
A different type of piety. It strikes me as mere sentimentality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 12-27-2005 4:41 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 12-27-2005 5:28 AM robinrohan has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 29 of 300 (273151)
12-27-2005 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by robinrohan
12-27-2005 4:50 AM


Good word, piety. Yes, a piety that tenderly protects the rights of cancer and bacteria. Getting those priorities straight.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 4:50 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 6:11 AM Faith has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 300 (273160)
12-27-2005 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Faith
12-27-2005 5:28 AM


humanistic Christianity
Yes, a piety that tenderly protects the rights of cancer and bacteria
In my view, it's an attempt to graft modern humanistic ideas onto a two thousand year old religion. But in order to make it nice, we are going to have to de-emphasize certain unpleasant ideas such as the Fall and the Passion.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 12-28-2005 07:55 AM

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Replies to this message:
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