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Author Topic:   Christmas music
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 31 of 72 (272758)
12-26-2005 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by ReverendDG
12-26-2005 12:21 AM


Re: Narrow, generally speaking
have you listened to all the different religous musics around the world?
claiming that *only* christian music is sublime, and none of what you said is in anyway objective
i highly doubt mithians would consider the whole god becoming a man a new concept, many angels announced births, so i'm sorry this is not new
Give us some evidence. Yes I've heard a lot of music from around the world. I've been challenged on my statement, so produce the evidence that my claim is wrong. What Jesus did is indeed new, everything else is a pale imitation, and inspired nothing whatever of the power of expression in music we are talking about here, let along everything else He inspired. If you say it did, where's the evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ReverendDG, posted 12-26-2005 12:21 AM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Funkaloyd, posted 12-26-2005 3:07 AM Faith has replied
 Message 46 by ReverendDG, posted 12-27-2005 2:35 AM Faith has not replied

  
Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 72 (272763)
12-26-2005 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
12-26-2005 1:55 AM


Re: Narrow, generally speaking
The burden of proof is on you.
I say that music with a 112/3 time signature is the best. Prove me wrong.
At the very least, you should find somebody else who agrees with this supposedly non-subjective benchmark of yours.
Perhaps I'm just not seeing it because one needs to have faith to properly critique art. Then again, perhaps I'm not seeing it because one needs to be Faith to properly critique art.
This message has been edited by Funkaloyd, Mon, 26-Dec-2005 08:17 PM
This message has been edited by Funkaloyd, Mon, 26-Dec-2005 08:49 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 12-26-2005 1:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 12-26-2005 4:43 PM Funkaloyd has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 33 of 72 (272909)
12-26-2005 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Funkaloyd
12-26-2005 3:07 AM


SUBLIME is the category
My response was to Parasomnium's affirmation in Message 6 that "religion" has produced some of the most beautiful music ever written, and he gave the example of Bach's Weinachts Oratorium. I answered that not "religion" but Christ inspired such music, because Bach's music is about Christ, not "religion," and he belongs to the Western tradition of "classical" music that celebrated Christ above most other themes, and there is a great deal of opinion that this includes the greatest music of all time, "sublime" music.
This is what I'm talking about. I've made it clear I believe there is a lot of very good music in the world, but "sublime" I don't think so, as this grows out of sublime ideas, which the idea of Christ is.
There is probably nothing more for me to say on this subject. I don't think you get it and probably won't no matter what I say, or some others either, but if anyone does and can produce some good challenges to my assertion, fine.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-26-2005 04:50 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Coragyps, posted 12-26-2005 4:52 PM Faith has replied
 Message 51 by Funkaloyd, posted 12-27-2005 5:32 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 53 by Parasomnium, posted 12-27-2005 5:45 PM Faith has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 34 of 72 (272916)
12-26-2005 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
12-26-2005 4:43 PM


Re: SUBLIME is the category
I would submit that there is a pretty good-sized body of mighty-pretty-or-sublime Virgin Mary music that's more adressed to/inspired by that personage than by her son. And my guess would be, Faith, that you don't much approve of Virgin Mary inspired stuff.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 12-26-2005 4:43 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 35 of 72 (272919)
12-26-2005 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Coragyps
12-26-2005 4:52 PM


Re: SUBLIME is the category
The Virgin Mary music is part of the Christian historical framework I'm talking about. But give your candidates please. The Ave Maria is nice, but I can't think of anything else. And besides, that too is about Christ as it is about the announcement to her of His birth. Idolatry of Mary is what I object to, but I certainly don't deny her very important role within the Christian story.
"Sublime" isn't just "pretty." Although the Hallelujah Chorus of Handel's Messiah is profaned all the time by association with every low kind of thing, such sublime music is never written for such things. It belongs to the subject matter of the coming of Christ to the world to save sinners.
But put up your candidates please, your "pretty good-sized body of mighty-pretty-or-sublime Virgin Mary music."
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-26-2005 05:23 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 36 of 72 (272929)
12-26-2005 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Funkaloyd
12-25-2005 11:35 PM


Re: Narrow, generally speaking
No, I didn't say that all music about Jesus was good. There is certainly a lot of cheap sentimental and other low music about Jesus, as many people sentimentalize him and don't really grasp the big picture. I said the greatest music ever written was about Him, however, and inspired the Western tradition of truly great music.

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 Message 39 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-26-2005 7:14 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 37 of 72 (272949)
12-26-2005 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
12-25-2005 11:53 PM


Folk songs
What I really have in mind is the soaring exaltation themes of Western Christian music, as expressing something beyond us and so much higher than we are, a reaching for something high, and full of an emotion of wonder and joy beyond joy, the fulfillment of human nature, something "too good to be true" in our ordinary experience. Both in the words and in the music itself. This is even in the Christmas carols but particularly in the Messiah and Bach and some Mozart and Brahms and so on and so forth.
The Hindu music is quite nice, but it isn't the same kind of thing at all though you say it is aimed at developing the highest love for God. In places the first one you linked sounds something like a Gregorian chant but otherwise it's just pleasant contemplative Hindu music.
I'd say it has more in common with folk music than what I'm talking about. And speaking of folk music, here's some that does give me goose bumps though it's only about the most pedestrian themes:
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http://www.international-records.com/ubp.html
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-26-2005 07:08 PM

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 38 of 72 (272978)
12-26-2005 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
12-26-2005 6:34 PM


Re: Folk songs
i think it may not sound so to you because you don't understand it and don't believe in their gods. your god makes your music trancendental to you. but it doesn't do the same to everyone else. i think most christian music is crap. i like protest music and epic balads. i think human struggle is something trancendental because it reminds us that we are the same in spite of our professed differences. my opinion.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 39 of 72 (272983)
12-26-2005 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
12-26-2005 5:23 PM


generally speaking of narrow
i also find it amusing how you center on wester music... considering that 'western' makes up less than a tenth of the world.
how very superior of you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 12-26-2005 5:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 12-27-2005 12:13 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 40 of 72 (273069)
12-26-2005 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
12-26-2005 5:04 PM


Re: SUBLIME is the category
Faith writes:
But put up your candidates please, your "pretty good-sized body of mighty-pretty-or-sublime Virgin Mary music."
Heh.
I don't think anybody wants to play pattycake with you, Faith.
While it may amuse you to wave away any non-Christian candidates for muscial sublimity (and it certainly amuses me to watch you do it), the exercise is a bit masturbatory.
As I pointed out above, you cannot know intimately the religious beliefs of even purportedly Christian composers. Further, you dismiss out of hand compostions from a culture about which you know next to nothing: of course their music doesn't speak to you--you don't speak that music's language, but still you are blithely content to dismiss the possibility of anything sublime in that entire oeuvre after hearing only a fragment of it, and studying none.
Theirs is a musical language of meditative universality and tolerance; yours is the musical language of an "exalted" ecclesiastical elite that is grounded on condemning the damned.
I offered the example of another religious culture, one far older than Christianity and one in which God takes human form for redemptive purposes; the adherents of that religion find their music every bit as sublime, and conducive to an adoration of God, as you do yours. The only real challenge has been more than met.
But at heart your "challenge" is a contrivance. Your ability to dismiss again and again what you neither know nor understand is not an answer; it is the problem.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 12-26-2005 5:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 41 of 72 (273075)
12-27-2005 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by macaroniandcheese
12-26-2005 7:14 PM


Re: generally speaking of narrow
It's just fascinating how nobody has any evidence that I'm wrong, just a lot of namecalling. Just fascinating.

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Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 42 of 72 (273093)
12-27-2005 12:57 AM


I think that notions of sublime are very subjective and rely heavily on what you were raised with. Those not from a western religious background are less likely to think western religious music is sublime..and vice a versa.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 43 of 72 (273095)
12-27-2005 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
12-27-2005 12:13 AM


Re: generally speaking of narrow
well, on the first page of google hits for "the greatest song of all time" we have 3 hits for "stairway to heaven," 3 hits for "like a rolling stone," 2 for "bohemian rhapsody," and 1 for "imagine."
so, uh, where does the christian music come in?

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 12-27-2005 12:13 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 44 of 72 (273104)
12-27-2005 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Asgara
12-27-2005 12:57 AM


This is so ridiculous. Nobody's even bothering to read what I wrote or think about it. No it is not subjective. And as far as being raised with Western classical music, I wasn't. I discovered it later. Not everyone is attracted to it, but there is a lot of expert judgment as to its superiority.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-27-2005 01:51 AM

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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 45 of 72 (273121)
12-27-2005 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
12-27-2005 1:43 AM


do you even know the meaning of subjective? it really doesn't sound like you do
superior in what way, taste in music is purely subjective, no one can ever agree on that, what do you want? there is no way to prove anything, its music!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 12-27-2005 1:43 AM Faith has not replied

  
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