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Author Topic:   Nature and the fall of man
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 31 of 300 (273161)
12-27-2005 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by robinrohan
12-27-2005 6:11 AM


Re: humanistic Christianity
That's a very perceptive analysis I'd say. Of course from my point of view it's just a way to get rid of the 2000-year-old religion without facing up to that motive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 6:11 AM robinrohan has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 32 of 300 (273172)
12-27-2005 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by robinrohan
12-27-2005 4:27 AM


Natural and Manmade
quote:
So if I get cancer, that's bad for me but good for the cancer, which after all, has a right to live too.
IMO, what you are presenting is not the same as what jar is presenting.
Cancer is cellular. Something within our own body that has run amuck.
Cancer develops when cells in one part of the body begin to grow out of control. Normal body cells grow, divide, and die in a systematic way. During the early years of a person’s life, normal cells divide more rapidly until the person becomes an adult. After that, cells in most parts of the body divide only to replace worn out or dying cells and to repair injuries. In the case of cancer cells, the genetic program that regulates their growth cycle is interrupted, causing the cells to become immortal and constantly divide. Cancer cell growth never stops, and it results in the formation of a tumor mass.
There are studies at the cellular level using natural nutrients to turn on the cellular program to stop the cancerous cells or have them commit suicide (apoptosis).
Even outside influences that may cause cancer are usually manmade and not from nature, IMO.
quote:
If a baby is born with a severe birth defect, that's bad for the baby, but good for . . . good for. . .
Whether you like to hear it or not, the birth defect is bad for the baby, but good for the species.
In the natural course of things, those born with severe defects probably would not live and therefore not procreate. So the genetics of those parents with a defective gene or gene combination would not continue.
It's just the way the system works.
Now there are also manmade reasons for birth defects. I assume you would not attribute these to God or his system. Hopefully mankind learns from his own mistakes.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 4:27 AM robinrohan has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 300 (273177)
12-27-2005 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by robinrohan
12-27-2005 4:27 AM


But I did not say it's all good. I said GOD is good.
So if I get cancer, that's bad for me but good for the cancer, which after all, has a right to live too.
No, the cancer does not have a right to live. A cancerous growth is not a separate entity.
If a baby is born with a severe birth defect, that's bad for the baby, but good for . . . good for. . .
That's very definitely bad for the baby. I don't think that's good for anyone.
BUT...
both the examples you gave were natural event, simply examples of what does happen.
And this is one of the wonderful changes as mankind abandoned the concept Of the Fall.
As long as we looked on things like you have mentioned as Acts of GOD, or the result of the Fall, or God's will, there was little we could do about it. With the knowledge we have gained over the mellenia, knowledge of Evolution and Genetics, we are beginning to understand how to treat cancers and birth defects. We are learning that such things are natural.
It is only through the understanding that mankind is not some fallen creature that we can begin to understand our place in this system. And fortunately, GOD has given us the ability to think, and the knowledge that there is right, and wrong, and the capability to work to make life better.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 4:27 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 10:49 AM jar has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 300 (273200)
12-27-2005 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
12-27-2005 9:45 AM


the best of all possible worlds
What you and Purpledawn seem to be suggesting it that it's the best of all possible worlds, except of course for bad things done by people.
A plague sweeps across Europe and kills untold numbers who suffer and die. That was bad for the people, of course, but good for the plague bacteria (not so good for the rats either). God loves all His little creatures. If we need to make a few hundred thousand humans die for the sake of My beloved bacteria, then so be it. That's the system!
Only it's not quite the best of all possible worlds because we are going to make it better. God did the best he could with what He had, but it took him a few billion years to evolve this creature called Man, who had Reason, and then it took a few hundred thousand more years for Man to get to the point where he could start improving this mess that God had on his hands.
Thank goodness we got over that superstitution about the Fall.
God's in his heaven, all's right with the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 12-27-2005 9:45 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 12-27-2005 11:06 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 37 by purpledawn, posted 12-27-2005 12:09 PM robinrohan has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 300 (273207)
12-27-2005 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by robinrohan
12-27-2005 10:49 AM


Re: the best of all possible worlds
What you and Purpledawn seem to be suggesting it that it's the best of all possible worlds, except of course for bad things done by people.
I of course cannot speak for PurpleDawn, but that is certainly not what I'm saying.
The rest of your post is not at all what I say either.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 10:49 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 11:35 AM jar has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 300 (273219)
12-27-2005 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
12-27-2005 11:06 AM


Re: the best of all possible worlds
You said the system He set up is perfect. So it's the best of all possible worlds. You can't get better than perfect.
I happen to believe in a Good GOD, one that loves everything equally. The system he set up is perfect

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 12-27-2005 11:06 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 12-27-2005 12:44 PM robinrohan has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 37 of 300 (273222)
12-27-2005 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by robinrohan
12-27-2005 10:49 AM


Humancentric
quote:
A plague sweeps across Europe and kills untold numbers who suffer and die. That was bad for the people, of course, but good for the plague bacteria (not so good for the rats either).
It has nothing to do with being good for the bacteria. It is good for the overall balance.
The system has checks and balances. When a deer population is too large for their area and their isn't enough food, the deer start to get sick and die. The illness brings the population back to a reasonable level. The survivors have plenty of food.
IMO, some of the diseases suffered by civilized man is due to overpopulation.
Humans need to function within the system just like the rest of creation. They are subject to the checks and balances just like the rest of creation. Oddly enough mankind keeps messing up the system not fixing it, mainly because he can't see the big picture, and because we think it was made for us to do with as we please, IMO.
The Bible is geared around humans, not God's system. The Bible doesn't support a change in the system because of one man's decision and doesn't support that man is supposed to fix anything except himself.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 10:49 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 12:36 PM purpledawn has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 300 (273227)
12-27-2005 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by purpledawn
12-27-2005 12:09 PM


Re: Humancentric
The system has checks and balances. When a deer population is too large for their area and their isn't enough food, the deer start to get sick and die.
The situation in Europe and Asia in the 14th century was a little different. They died from the plague, not starvation. And anyway, there weren't that many people back then to begin with. After it was over with, the situation was no different except that there were a lot fewer people. That also means fewer farmers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by purpledawn, posted 12-27-2005 12:09 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by purpledawn, posted 12-27-2005 1:46 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 41 by randman, posted 12-27-2005 1:52 PM robinrohan has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 39 of 300 (273228)
12-27-2005 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by robinrohan
12-27-2005 11:35 AM


Re: the best of all possible worlds
I said that the system is perfect. The system is designed to assure that life evolves, changes to meet changing conditions. That in no way says that the products of the system are the best of all possible worlds.
What is says is that it is the world.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 11:35 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 3:02 PM jar has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 40 of 300 (273235)
12-27-2005 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by robinrohan
12-27-2005 12:36 PM


Re: Humancentric
quote:
They died from the plague, not starvation.
I didn't say the deer died of starvation.
quote:
And anyway, there weren't that many people back then to begin with.
Supposedly the group to die first numbered in the tens of thousands. Sounds like a lot of people to me.
The rats were probably the overpopulated group. Unfortunately the crowded overpopulated, unsanitary living habits of mankind made them victims of the disease also, because the rats headed there for food. Trade routes made it possible for the disease to spread.
Mankind tends to create many of their own problems.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 12:36 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 3:29 PM purpledawn has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 41 of 300 (273240)
12-27-2005 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by robinrohan
12-27-2005 12:36 PM


Re: Humancentric
Robinrohan, I wish I had time to add to the discussion and comment in depth, but you are very succinct and on target.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 12:36 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 300 (273258)
12-27-2005 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
12-27-2005 12:44 PM


Re: the best of all possible worlds
I said that the system is perfect. The system is designed to assure that life evolves, changes to meet changing conditions. That in no way says that the products of the system are the best of all possible worlds.
Evolution doeesn't seem to be a perfect system to me. It looks like a hit and miss affair. Just to take a tiny example, this system produces vestigial structures that do nothing but take up space and sometimes are harmful. These are leftovers from the evolutionary past. There are cave animals that have eyes that don't work anymore. I suppose one might say they perform a cosmetic function (I would find a fish without eyes rather spooky), but that would be a humancentric view since the fish can't see each other and so don't care about the cosmetics.
Apart from this, I don't see how one can separate our judgment of a system from its products. The system exists for its products. Let's say I had this system for making medicines. I hired some workers and set up an assembly line and was boasting about how perfect my system was. I could produce medicines right and left, all different varities, and I could change and produce new and different medicines. The only problem was the quality of the medicines themselves. Some worked rather well, while others did nothing to the patient one way or the other. Others killed the patients, or maimed them for life, and still others made them go crazy and start killing and eating other people. My system was perfect in one sense: it produced many different medicines.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 12-27-2005 12:44 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 12-27-2005 3:09 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 46 by nwr, posted 12-27-2005 4:08 PM robinrohan has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 300 (273261)
12-27-2005 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by robinrohan
12-27-2005 3:02 PM


Re: the best of all possible worlds
Is there a question in there? If so I couldn't find it.
Evolution doeesn't seem to be a perfect system to me.
Okay. I believe that is your viewpoint. Fine.
But I do see it as a perfect system. It has allowed life to continue even through some very major changes. It allows life to evolve and change as conditions change. It's been working now for many billions of years.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 3:02 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by robinrohan, posted 12-27-2005 3:11 PM jar has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 300 (273262)
12-27-2005 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
12-27-2005 3:09 PM


Re: the best of all possible worlds
Is there a question in there? If so I couldn't find it.
Why should I ask you a question? I'm arguing a point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 12-27-2005 3:09 PM jar has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 300 (273267)
12-27-2005 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by purpledawn
12-27-2005 1:46 PM


Mankind tends to create many of their own problems.
Mankind didn't create the plague. You seem to be introducing some odd environmental point. If only we treated the natural system better, it would treat us better. You may very well be right about that, but it doesn't seem to fit this topic. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 12-27-2005 02:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by purpledawn, posted 12-27-2005 1:46 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by purpledawn, posted 12-27-2005 6:07 PM robinrohan has replied

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