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Author Topic:   Nature and the fall of man
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 61 of 300 (273321)
12-27-2005 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
12-27-2005 4:36 PM


Re: the best of all possible worlds
And how do you know what 'Pre Fall' is like? A badly translated story modified by the ancient hebrews , who got many of the concept from the sumaritans?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 12-27-2005 4:36 PM Faith has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 62 of 300 (273418)
12-28-2005 1:23 AM


weird idea
The weird thing about this thread and jar's stance is the idea of associating love and perfection with evolution. If there are perfect values reflected in evolution, it is certainly not love for species or individuals. The idea that a perfect and loving God deliberately created evolution, and that evolution is a perfect system, without some further explanation strikes me as sheer lunacy.
Evolution, if designed as jar claims, is a system of inherent cruelty, not love. To call it perfect thus assumes the life of the individual and individual species, and even the life of man, is meaningless, but all that matters if life evolves, period. The values thus are not things love, individual rights, ethics of helping the poor and weak, but the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. The values of evolution are dark indeed.
This message has been edited by randman, 12-28-2005 01:24 AM

Replies to this message:
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 Message 69 by ramoss, posted 12-28-2005 9:35 AM randman has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 63 of 300 (273437)
12-28-2005 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by randman
12-28-2005 1:23 AM


Re: weird idea
quote:
The values thus are not things love, individual rights, ethics of helping the poor and weak, but the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. The values of evolution are dark indeed.
That's because Jesus wasn't teaching about evolution or how nature functions. Jesus was dealing with the human condition; human behavior and relationships.
Evolution is not a living thing that holds values (the social principles, goals, or standards held by an individual, class, society, etc.). I look at it as the base operating system.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 300 (273438)
12-28-2005 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by purpledawn
12-27-2005 6:07 PM


Natural disasters happened before mankind's time and during mankind's time. Sometimes they affect a few creatures, sometimes all creatures.
It has nothing to do with man's behavior. It is just the way the world works.
I certainly agree with you, but this topic is about the Fall. Some Christians say the Fall made nature degenerate. Other Christians, I think, say there was a Fall but it didn't affect nature. Still others say there was no Fall, that there are only individual falls.
The only one of these explanations that accounts for the apparent arbitrary cruelty of nature is the view that the Fall made nature degenerate. However, this is also the one that conflicts most with the theory of evolution. This thread has made me realize the importance of this issue.

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Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 65 of 300 (273440)
12-28-2005 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by randman
12-26-2005 4:20 PM


Re: A 20th century invention?
emphasis mine
nwr, come on man, the Fall is a very old Christian and Jewish concept. Anyone barely educated in this stuff knows that.
Doesn't making such an elementary mistake such as this, motivate you into doing some serious Bible study, maybe even a formal course?
Brian.
edited out a pointless statement.
This message has been edited by Brian, 12-28-2005 09:01 AM

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mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 66 of 300 (273443)
12-28-2005 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by randman
12-28-2005 1:23 AM


Re: weird idea
randman,
Evolution, if designed as jar claims, is a system of inherent cruelty, not love.
How many organisms died in the flood, again?
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 67 of 300 (273445)
12-28-2005 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by mark24
12-28-2005 9:03 AM


Re: weird idea
How many organisms died in the flood, again?
That was man's fault wasn't it? Apparently, free thinking has no place in a perfect world.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 68 of 300 (273446)
12-28-2005 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by robinrohan
12-28-2005 7:46 AM


The Way of God
From my limited understanding of Judaism, I feel that they do not support the Fall or Original Sin viewpoint.
From "Understanding Judaism" by Rabbi Benjamin Blech, we have:
Jews don't begin life with the mark of Cain or the guilt of original sin.
You might find this interesting from a book by Moshe Chaim Luzzatto entitled "The Way of God"-
God, however, is the One True Perfection, being imperatively perfect, necessarily devoid of fault. This trait, in truth, is only God's, for no other being is perfect by necessity, and devoid of fault by nature. Still, in order for a created being to come to resemble God to some degree, it is necessary that it at least earn the perfection that is not an imperative part of its being, and it must avoid the deficiency that is not precluded by its nature.
God therefore decreed and arranged that creation contain elements of both perfection and deficiency, as well as a creature with equal access to both. This creature would then be given the means to both acquire perfection and avoid deficiency.
Now the author continues by stating that every fault is merely the absence of God's good and the concealment of His presence. IOW, closeness to God and illumination of His presence is the root and cause of every perfection that exists, while concealment of His presence is the root and cause of every fault and the degree of deficiency depends on the degree of this concealment.
This Jewish perspective would support that nature has always been the same, but how it affects mankind depends on man's behavior, IMO. I think this belief is also reflected by the warnings of the prophets.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by robinrohan, posted 12-28-2005 7:46 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 69 of 300 (273447)
12-28-2005 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by randman
12-28-2005 1:23 AM


Re: weird idea
You are making some false assumptions about evolution. Evolution is not a philosphy, it does not make value judgements, it just is what developed based on the physical laws of the universe.
It is 'perfect' in that it gets the job done. The emotions of LOVE, of nuture, of altruism are explainable via the mechanism of evolution.
If you feel that makes life 'meaningless', why would that be any more meaninless than being manipulated by an omnisiciet, omnipotent supernatural being whose motivations are unknown and unknowable?

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 70 of 300 (273449)
12-28-2005 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by randman
12-26-2005 4:20 PM


Re: A 20th century invention?
Just a point. The 'Fall' is not a Jewish concept.

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 300 (273450)
12-28-2005 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by purpledawn
12-28-2005 9:29 AM


Re: The Way of God
This Jewish perspective would support that nature has always been the same, but how it affects mankind depends on man's behavior, IMO.
Man or men? If the negative reactions of nature are directed toward particular men, it would seem that there is a lot of "collateral damage."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by purpledawn, posted 12-28-2005 9:29 AM purpledawn has replied

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 72 of 300 (273476)
12-28-2005 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by robinrohan
12-28-2005 9:43 AM


Re: The Way of God
quote:
Man or men?
Seems to cover both.
The flood wiped out all but seven supposedly.
Even though Pharoh was the one who wouldn't let the Hebrews go, the Egyptian people suffered through the plagues. I think the Hebrews suffered through some of those plagues also.
Doesn't really go along with the "each dies for his own sins" concept does it.
If this is the way God uses nature to discipline, then I guess it is wise to invest in a flack jacket.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by robinrohan, posted 12-28-2005 9:43 AM robinrohan has not replied

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 300 (273477)
12-28-2005 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by robinrohan
12-28-2005 9:43 AM


Re: The Way of God
I guess Nature has no smart bombs. It carries out its attacks grossly and promiscuously.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 74 of 300 (273487)
12-28-2005 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by purpledawn
12-28-2005 11:03 AM


Re: The Way of God
Even though Pharoh was the one who wouldn't let the Hebrews go, the Egyptian people suffered through the plagues.
Actually, according to the Bible, it was not the Pharoah who would not let the Hebrews go, but God. The Pharoah was more than willing to see a troublesome peoples leave but the Hebrew God "hardened Pharoah's heart".
This message has been edited by jar, 12-28-2005 10:59 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 75 of 300 (273537)
12-28-2005 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ramoss
12-28-2005 9:35 AM


Re: weird idea
Evolution is not a philosphy, it does not make value judgements
I know you guys claim that, but your arguments say something different. For example, you will often hear evos argue against ID and for evolution with the theological based argument that God "would not" design things a certain way because the designs are poor or some such. There are other areas where we see a strong philosophical mindset among evos such as claiming ToE indicates randomness a priori and then interpreting the data based on that assumption and thus making a circular argument. As such, the argument against design is really philosophy-based and not science-based.
But getting back to your post, stating what God would or would not do is a value judgement, exactly what you say evos don't do, but some sure do it here.
You also make a values judgment here.
It is 'perfect' in that it gets the job done.
You insert values, goals, in stating what "the job" is. My response you criticize is objective and reasonable. Since you claim evolution has "a job" or a goal, that "it gets done", it is reasonable to ask what that job is, isn't?
And you guys have stated the job is to make sure life continues, and so life as a concept and as a whole is the prime value you are inserting, not species's survival, not human life, nor human feelings, nor human rights, nor love, etc,...So if you say God's primary message is Love as jar says, and that He created evolution as an expression of it, why would He create such a cruel system then?
It seems to me that the same argument of calling God an incompetent designer if ID is true works just the same if evolution is true. He is not less incompetent if He wanted the values jar ascribes to God to be expressed, unless you want to introduce to either scenario man's responsibility in the Fall, and the beauty of redemption and eternity.
Basically, the idea that evolution works well communicates extremely harsh values of survival of the fittest, and certainly not kindness and love.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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