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Author
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Topic: Man raised back to life in Jesus' name
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 30 of 300 (272894)
12-26-2005 4:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by randman
12-26-2005 3:43 AM
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quote:
Miracles still happen today.
Yeah. Here's another miracle from the past. God is truly loving and merciful, isn't He, rand?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by randman, posted 12-26-2005 3:43 AM | | randman has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 62 of 300 (273778)
12-29-2005 9:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 35 by randman
12-26-2005 7:37 PM
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Re: prove it
quote:
Let me add a small miracle but which would be hard to fake. I had a friend that had fillings in his teeth go up for prayer in a healing meeting and when he came back to his seat the fillings were gone and he had tooth where the fillings were.
I know a guy staying at my brother-in-laws that went up for prayer with the older darker colored fillings come back with gold fillings. I was not at the meeting, but looked at the fillings myself as we were all staying at the same house. They were also intricate drawings on the gold. Now, those are not the most important miracles, but they certainly were not faked. When the anointing and presence of God are involved, miraculous things can happen.
Wow. All I can say is wow. You talk about how incredibly powerful and amazing your so-called omnicient, all-powerful god is and this is what he decides to do as miracles? He gives someone gold fillings????? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Oh, man, that is the best laugh I've had in a while.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 35 by randman, posted 12-26-2005 7:37 PM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 64 by randman, posted 12-29-2005 12:33 PM | | nator has replied | | | Message 69 by Brian, posted 12-30-2005 6:45 PM | | nator has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 63 of 300 (273780)
12-29-2005 9:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
12-26-2005 10:53 PM
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Re: Before You Blame God............
Fillings? God spends his time with fillings while children starve and people die from war and disease? quote:
You don't get if you don't ask, or if you ask in unbelief, et al. If you obey god, assuming the responsibilities of Christianity and ask in faith believing, you may receive.
So.... that means that true Fundamentalist Christians should have ended war, famine, and disease within their own communities, correct?
quote:
Are you personally praying for and doing something to aleviate the starving children of the world and the oppessed, et al?
The point is, if God answered the ferverent prayers of believers, war, famine, and disease should have ended long ago. That is, if god 1) answers prayer, and 2) is merciful, and 3) has the power to do so.
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Then too, have you ever considered why some nations and cultures have so much of this starvation and suffering?
You mean like the fundamentalist Christian culture in poor, impoverished, poorly-educated Alabama?
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Could it be that their ideologies have something to do with the poverty and suffering they are experiencing?
Sure. They would rather read the Bible than educate their citizens.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 12-26-2005 10:53 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 65 of 300 (274125)
12-30-2005 8:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 64 by randman
12-29-2005 12:33 PM
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Re: prove it
quote:
Shraf, you don't like the way God does things. Talk with him about it.
It has nothing to do with "like" or not. It's just hilarious that 1) You are so gullible to believe these people's claims, and 2) That you have portrayed the all-powerful diety you worship as some sort of Divine Dentist. That is just too funny.
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The fact is if you look in the Bible and today, there are certain types of meetings with anointing levels high enough and faith and many things, where miraculous healings occur.
Yeah, and gold fillings get implanted. LOL!!!
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If you are present, believing, and seeking a miraculous healing when the power of the Lord is present to heal, you might could receive just about any healing.
...or you might not. Right? Do you have any stats on the rate of "healings"? Has any kind of real recording of data been done? Has any statistical analysis shown a greater rate of healing that can be attributed to these meetings? Or, is it going to be more of the "I wasn't there, but my friend told me..." kinds of stories? So far, that's all you've presented. Feel free to swallow those stories if it helps you get through the day, but without some kind of real evidence, no rational person has any obligation to just take your word for things.
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So at the meetings I am referring to, many things like cancer, etc,...were healed,
Prove it.
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but I mentioned the teeth because I think that would be hard to fake and might be more convincing to a skeptic,
Oh, yes, observed under the proper controls, such a occurence would be very impressive and would be quite convincing. To be blunt, however, given my past experience with your standards of "evidence", I am not at all inclined to take your word as reliable. There were no controls in place, nor was there an disinterested observer, correct? All who were present were heavily biased in favor of believing in miracles, right?
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but your response is one reason I have learned not to waste time trying to prove such miracles.
Hey, I never said the actions of your Divine Dentist weren't miracles. I just don't have any reason to believe that they were unless you cough up some quality evidence that was gathered under some reasonable controls. You want people to believe your hearsay as fact and then you get bent out of shape and put upon when they don't. If a little giggling, skepticism, and questioning discourages you so completely then you really are WAY too thin-skinned to think or act scientifically.
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Thousands upon thousands occur every single year in Christian assemblies all over the world.
Detailed, specific evidence please. Details, such as names, dates, doctor's reports, statistical analysis of the healing rates of these groups compared to the general population, rates of spontaneous cures, verification that these people were really sick, etc.
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You choose not to believe,
I choose to require verification and evidence before accepting claims. I am not as gullible as you.
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and choose to say hateful things about the Lord who does those healings.
I merely find amusement in your portrayal of your Lord as the Divine Dentist. There can be no hate towards an entity that I don't know exists.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 64 by randman, posted 12-29-2005 12:33 PM | | randman has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 86 of 300 (274599)
01-01-2006 7:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 68 by crashfrog
12-30-2005 2:00 PM
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Re: prove it
quote:
Hard to fake? Why would it be hard to fake? All you would have to do is just make up a story about it and type it into a text box.
You just know that the guys that told randman about their "miraculous" dental work experiences are just pulling his leg. They're probably placing bets with each other on how far-fetched a story they can make up that randman will swallow and are having a great laugh at his expense. Poor randman.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by crashfrog, posted 12-30-2005 2:00 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 87 by Brian, posted 01-01-2006 7:43 AM | | nator has not replied | | | Message 90 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 1:12 PM | | nator has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 93 of 300 (274812)
01-01-2006 9:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 90 by randman
01-01-2006 1:12 PM
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Re: prove it
quote:
Shraf, the simple fact is I saw the before and after,
That's not what you said in your initial recounting.
Let me add a small miracle but which would be hard to fake. I had a friend that had fillings in his teeth go up for prayer in a healing meeting and when he came back to his seat the fillings were gone and he had tooth where the fillings were. You mention nothing of seeing his fillings before the meeting. Are you saying that you looked in his mouth and recorded which teeth had fillings, or perhaps took a picture, before he went up to the meeting? Were you with him the entire time, before, during, and after the "miracle dental work" occurred, when you are sure you saw the fillings before and know which teeth they were in? Are you familiar enoughwith dental work to know if teeth have been replaced, or white, natural looking fillings have been swapped for the silver? There's a simple way to put this to rest. Is there any way we can get the e-mail address of theis guy's dentist so we can verify that he actually has new living toothin places where he had fillings before?
I know a guy staying at my brother-in-laws that went up for prayer with the older darker colored fillings come back with gold fillings. I was not at the meeting, but looked at the fillings myself as we were all staying at the same house. They were also intricate drawings on the gold. So, we know for sure that you were not with this guy for the entire process. I am also assuming that there were no controls or real recording of data in either case.
quote:
and have witnessed so many miracles in different meetings, and received some myself, that from my perspective, debating it with you is like a man trying to tell someone in a primitive state that an airplane is not a big bird or some such.
You still don't get it, randman. Let me ask you this. If I told you that the Galactic Invisible Unicorn had been granting me Wishes since I started worshipping at Her temple, and I told you about all of my wonderful experiences with Wishes coming true, and I could tell you a story about this friend that I knew who used to get real bad gas but ever since they got a Wish they don't get gas any more,, and if I said that I was given 100 dollars every year by the GIU, would you take me at my word? Wouldn't you at least want to see the money before believing me? Or, would you just believe everything I told you, without a single doubt? I have never, ever, once said that any of the events you have claimed are not miracles. They may well be. The problem is that without some sort of real evidence and normal controls in place, they are just stories and hearsay.
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I suppose you haven't been there, haven't seen, and so you ridicule what you do not understand.
It's not my fault I don't "understand" or believe. You have made it impossible for me to come to any conclusion at all regarding your claims. It's not my fault you have decided to treat these claims in such a completely credulous manner. Thanks, but I'll keep my bullshit detector firmly in my back pocket rather than throwing it out the car window on the freeway as you seem to have.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 1:12 PM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 94 by nwr, posted 01-01-2006 9:55 PM | | nator has replied | | | Message 96 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 11:09 PM | | nator has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 100 of 300 (274940)
01-02-2006 7:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 94 by nwr
01-01-2006 9:55 PM
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Re: prove it
quote:
If you had looked at a couple of my teeth last November, you would have seen very obvious fillings. If you looked again today, you would see no sign of the fillings.
They are called crowns. I expect that a dentist can distinguish between crowns and plain teeth, but most untrained people could not.
OK, now I'm 99% sure that those guys are nudging each other in the ribs and laughing at what they were able to get randman to believe. Poor randman.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 94 by nwr, posted 01-01-2006 9:55 PM | | nwr has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 101 of 300 (274941)
01-02-2006 7:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 96 by randman
01-01-2006 11:09 PM
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Re: prove it
quote:
I have learned though it is foolish to try to prove and provide documentation of miracles which I used to try to do, because no matter what you provide, people like you will not believe if you do not want to.
That's not true at all. I have said, over and over, that the events you describe might be real miracles. I have not ever said that they were not. I think it would be the most incredible and fabulous thing in the entire world to be witness to a real miracle or supernatural event that was demonstrated or viewed under controled conditions in which reasonable measures were taken to eliminate bias and fraud. It would be life-changing and might even get me to believe in some kind of god. I am open, randman, to them being real. That's why I require evidence and some kind of proper controls and some basic verification before I'll accept it. I don't just believe what people say about supernatural occurrences just because they say so. So, since you are unable or unwilling to give me anything to support your story other than, "Believe me because I want you to.", I have no choice but to remain undecided regarding the veracity of your stories. I don't know if they are true or not, because there is not enough good, untainted data for me to make a determination. Can you please tell me why thinking in this way is so wrong, and such a terrible shortcoming? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-02-2006 07:43 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 11:09 PM | | randman has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 104 of 300 (274980)
01-02-2006 10:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 96 by randman
01-01-2006 11:09 PM
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Re: prove it
Is there any way we can get the e-mail address of theis guy's dentist so we can verify that he actually has new living toothin places where he had fillings before? Surely, this miracle of regrowing teeth has to have been published in some kind of dentistry journal, or at least in some newspaper. It would be an incredible medical story that I imagine would make newspapers and online news sources everywhere, similar to the partially eaten grilled cheese sandwich with the Virgin Mary on it. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-02-2006 10:20 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 11:09 PM | | randman has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 106 of 300 (274988)
01-02-2006 10:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 96 by randman
01-01-2006 11:09 PM
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found these interesting links
link Minister lies when he said god gave him the gold tooth! Toronto Globe and Mail, 27 March 1999, p. A6 A Guiding Hand The president of Canada's only Christian television station admitted Thursday that it was a dentist, not God, who gave him a gold tooth. Earlier this week during an on-air fundraising telethon, Dick Dewert told a CJIL-TV audience in Lethbridge [Alberta] that after extensive prayer, God had worked a miracle in his mouth. "I've got a gold tooth I never had before," he said, repeating the claim several times over the next few days. However, Mr. Dewert's long-time dentist, Dr. Jack Sherman, though a skilled practitioner, would hardly call himself a dental god. He informed his patient Thursday morning that there was nothing biblical about the appearance of the glittering filling--he had put it in about 10 years ago. link The following is only an excerpt, there's much more.
DENTAL MIRACLES ARE LATEST FASHION IN "ANOINTING" CHURCHES Web Posted: June 29, 1999 Chew on this. Another bizarre wave of convulsive religiosity, proof that god is showing His presence through mysterious "signs and wonders," may be about to explode on the nation's Pentecostal religious landscape. The Man Upstairs is working miracles again, according to some. No, he's not providing us with a cure for cancer, a recipe to end baldness, even the solution to Fermat's Last Theorem. Answers like that might give even a hardened skeptic cause for pause. Instead, He's coming with a mouthful of miracles. Literally. Some say god is turning their dental filings into gold, although there is argument as to why exactly the corypheus of the Universe would be doing this. The story begins last March, when two high-profile evangelical ministers in Canada claimed that following a round of intensive prayer, God implanted a gold tooth, or turned a preexisting silver amalgam filing to solid gold. Dick Dewart told a radio audience during a fundraising marathon of this incredible event. A similar claim was made by Willard Thiessen, host of a Winnepeg religious radio show and President of Trinity Television. By May, however, the stories changed. According to the Canadian Press, a "chastened" Thiessen admitted that the gold tooth had actually been implanted by his brother Elmer, a dentist. "I'm embarrassed to tears about this, I thought I had a miracle," Thiessen lamented. "Please check with your dentist," he hastened to add, before claiming such divine intervention. Thiessen continues to maintain that God does work through dental miracles, though, and says that in the 1970s, cavities in his wife Betty's mouth were mysteriously filled without the benefit of a session in the dentist's chair. Dewert also recanted, admitting that his longtime dentist, Dr. jack Sherman, put the tooth in about ten years earlier. "It was an honest mistake," Dewart insisted. "I was sincere in what I said. When miracles appear to be happening, it's easy to get excited and, in my case, jump to conclusions." The case of the Divine Dentist would have ended there, at least for most folks. But now, a wave of "dental miracle" claims has erupted in Omaha, Nebraska, where more than a dozen people in four churches insist that their dental work has miraculously been transformed into gold. According to the Omaha World-Herald newspaper, the reports began around June 2 and have increased since then. The claims have "triggered widespread excitement and talk among Omaha Pentecostals," notes the paper, and "two pastors have addressed the issue from their pulpits. They call it the work of God." Reporter Julia McCord cautions, "None of the reports of transformations has been verified scientifically..." and "Independent dental professional are skeptical. They say it is impossible for one metal to be transformed into another." Even so, a minister at one "mega-church" where the dental miracle claims first surfaced insists that those claiming the divine fillings "are reliable people." Most have been with the church for "several years." Some pastors are accepting the authenticity of the miracles, while others fear that their churches will be ridiculed as a result of the outlandish claims. Rev. Les Beauchamp, a senior pastor at the Trinity Church Interdenominational where the first miracles were reported on June 2, told his congregation that these amazing dental procedures are in the "signs and wonders" category referred to in the Book of Acts. link One of these porcelain casts fooled my husband's dentist at first glance.
One of the newest methods that we have to replace old, worn out silver/mercury amalgam fillings is by casting porcelain in the same way that gold is cast. Even ten years ago, only gold could be fabricated by the “lost wax process” that was developed by the ancient Egyptians to make jewelry for the Pharaohs. Now, through the most modern technology, porcelain can be liquefied under tremendous heat and pressure to resemble molten glass and pressed into intricate patterns to the most exacting dimensions. The results, as you see here, are spectacular. Not only do porcelain inlays and onlays fabricated in this way have the precise fit of the gold restorations of old, but owing to the space-age adhesives that we have, restoring a tooth in this way actually strengthens and stiffens it, making it less likely to break in the future. That is something that could not be done even with cast gold without the need to cut away large amounts of natural tooth structure in order to create mechanical bracing. Here, with cast porcelain, we can preserve all healthy natural tooth structure and create restorations that leave the impression that the tooth or teeth never even had cavities! Now that is a miracle!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 11:09 PM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 119 by randman, posted 01-03-2006 12:43 AM | | nator has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 128 of 300 (275273)
01-03-2006 8:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 119 by randman
01-03-2006 12:43 AM
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Re: found these interesting links
quote:
I understand your skepticism,
Well, that's a pleasant and welcome change of attitude. I strongly urge you to aquire a bit more skepticism yourself regarding these matters, as you yourself admit that there are couterfeits to the real thing. Don't be so open minded that your brain falls out. Don't be so desperate to see a miracle that you blind yourself to everyone else's desperation to see a miracle. It took me all of 10 minutes of googling to find all of that information on the miracle gold fillings and porcelain crowns. If you had been a little more skeptical, and a little less credulous, and had done a little research yourself, you wouldn't look as, well, gullible as you do right now.
quote:
and that as always, there will be counterfeits to the real thing.
Well, that's the thing, randman. All of my questioning and probing is an attempt to determine the counterfeits from the real thing. We certainly know that, so far, not a single claim of a miracle, or any supernatural claim for that matter, has withstood a real scientific investigation. Chicanery or just plain old self-delusion has been the source of every investigated claim. Either that, or there is not enough evidence available to make a determination. All that has been provided is hearsay and anecdotes. The "miracle gold fillings" example is perfect. When we investigate further, we find that a pastor who thinks that God has changed one of his fillings to gold was simply self deluded and had, in his intense need to see a miracle in his mouth, completely forgotten that he had had this gold filling for the last 10 years. If he had simply had some skepticism about his own memory and perceptions, and if he was interested in really investigating and knowing the truth, he would have simply rung up his dentist and asked the man about it. This is the typical track record of such claims, and always has been, for hundreds of years.
quote:
All I can tell you is the truth on this matter. How you treat that is up to you.
I believe you are sincere. However, since you have shown yourself to be largely without skepticism or doubt regarding such claims, I have no idea if your belief is justified. I have no idea if you are believing "the truth" or if you have been fooled. That's why I have been asking for the e-mail address of your friend's dentist. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-03-2006 08:53 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 119 by randman, posted 01-03-2006 12:43 AM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 129 by randman, posted 01-03-2006 10:38 AM | | nator has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 142 of 300 (275988)
01-05-2006 7:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 129 by randman
01-03-2006 10:38 AM
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Re: found these interesting links
quote:
Shraf, with all due respect, I am not desperate to see a miracle, and in our lives, my wife and I, such miracles are not uncommon. I know you don't buy that, but you have to understand I am not talking about something I have read or seen on the internet but real things that have occurred in my own life and the life of those around me, and yes, at times, instances of friends and acquaintances serving the Lord overseas which in some instances has even more dramatic miracles.
But randman, how much skepticism do you retain and how much checking do you do in the face of such claims? I have shown you that one of the originators of this latest religious phenomena, who is a pastor of a church has admitted to getting carried away and forgetting that his gold filling was obtained 10 years ago in the usual manner; it was put there by his dentist. You obviously did exactly zero checking into the claims of miracle gold fillings. You accepted them at face value with not a drop of doubt. You seemingly doen't think there's anything dangerous about readily swallowing every claim of miracles without a moment's pause, nor do you make any effort to verify the claims, nor do you entertain the possibility that people want to be seen as special or part of the "in group", so they make it up, or get carried away and truly believe but are engaging in wishful thinking, confirmation bias, and self-delusion. This is exactly what happened to that pastor I mentioned above. And your claim about the child with Hepatitis. Did you know anything about the tests that Trixie has mentioned? Did you just uncritically accept that the miracle was true without doing any sort of investigating? Why not? Don't you want to know which ones are "real", which ones are the result of self delusions, which ones provide too little evidence to come to a determination, and which ones are outright frauds? All of this is what leads me to believe that you are desperate to see miracles happening all the time. This is the same reason all of those other people are desperate to see miracles, too. You would rather believe a comforting lie than work to discover a possibly uncomfortable truth. Just because they are in your church or are nice people or are "born again" doesn't make them immune from self delusion, wishful thinking, or confirmation bias. It also doesn't mean they are immune to having plain old sloppy or non-existent critical thinking skills and logic. That's the whole point I am trying to get you to understand. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-05-2006 08:33 AM This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-05-2006 08:35 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 129 by randman, posted 01-03-2006 10:38 AM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 143 by randman, posted 01-05-2006 5:44 PM | | nator has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 147 of 300 (276220)
01-05-2006 9:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 143 by randman
01-05-2006 5:44 PM
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Re: found these interesting links
quote:
Shraf, the things I write to you about things I have seen in my own life have been checked.
"Checked?" What, exactly, do you mean by "checked"? So far, you have not described anything other than acceptance without any "checks". And anyway, it's not true that you have only posted "miracles" that are from your own firsthand experience. You were not a firsthand witness to the incident you started the thread with, were you? And you weren't present at any of the incidences you claim are "real" that you cut and pasted from the web, were you?
quote:
Obviously, if something is posted from the internet, I made a disclaimer on those that they are of similar types of things I have seen.
Randman. One of the links you provided that was, I suppose, meant to support your claims of gold filling miracles, contained several reports by members of the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship Church. Nowhere are any names of dentists given. There is no way to check the claims. So, they remain merely claims. This is the theme of all of the links you give. Come on, man, provide something verifiable that nobody has to take anybody else's word on anything. And, lest you forget, several of the original ministers in Canada who claimed to have receieved the very first Divine Dentistry were shown to have been self-deluded . The track record of these claims is, so far, not good when basic verification is done.
The story begins last March, when two high-profile evangelical ministers in Canada claimed that following a round of intensive prayer, God implanted a gold tooth, or turned a preexisting silver amalgam filing to solid gold. Dick Dewart told a radio audience during a fundraising marathon of this incredible event. A similar claim was made by Willard Thiessen, host of a Winnepeg religious radio show and President of Trinity Television. By May, however, the stories changed. According to the Canadian Press, a "chastened" Thiessen admitted that the gold tooth had actually been implanted by his brother Elmer, a dentist. "I'm embarrassed to tears about this, I thought I had a miracle," Thiessen lamented. "Please check with your dentist," he hastened to add, before claiming such divine intervention. Thiessen continues to maintain that God does work through dental miracles, though, and says that in the 1970s, cavities in his wife Betty's mouth were mysteriously filled without the benefit of a session in the dentist's chair. Dewert also recanted, admitting that his longtime dentist, Dr. jack Sherman, put the tooth in about ten years earlier. "It was an honest mistake," Dewart insisted. "I was sincere in what I said. When miracles appear to be happening, it's easy to get excited and, in my case, jump to conclusions." quote:
You can check into them if you want.
No, randman, I really can't. There are no names of dentists in the stories.
quote:
There seems to be people willing to allow someone like you to check into the events to see if they happened. If you want to know, look up the people, call them, and do some research.
The question is, though, why it is that you are seemingly completely uninterested in doing any of this research yourself before presenting these anecdotes as some sort of evidence on this discussion board. YOU are the one making the claims, so YOU are the one who needs to do the legwork and determine the real from the delusion from the wishful thinking from the fraud if you expect anyone else to take you at all seriously.
quote:
In all likelihood, you will find real miracles, but yes, people do get carried away and you can find some fake ones to or instances where people mistook something for a miracle.
Right. So don't you want to know who does this? Don't you want to know if you have been fooling yourself, or if others have been fooling you?
quote:
If you just want to debate, then I suppose you won't take the time to research and investigate these claims.
Jesus Christ, randman, what the frick have I been doing in this thread if it hasn't been doing all of YOUR bloody research? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-05-2006 09:19 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 143 by randman, posted 01-05-2006 5:44 PM | | randman has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 148 of 300 (276222)
01-05-2006 9:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 145 by randman
01-05-2006 6:03 PM
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Re: the Lord works in mysterious periodontic ways
quote:
to some trivial items as once oil being put into a car that had no oil in it.
How do you know it had no oil in it?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 145 by randman, posted 01-05-2006 6:03 PM | | randman has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: Can anyone define a miracle for me? Anyone?
quote:
Has everyone agreed with each other as to what an authentic miracle is?
I like Hume's definition from this website:
A miracle is "a transgression of a law of nature by a particular volition of the Deity, or by the interposition of some invisible agent" (Hume, 123n). The summary of the essay is as follows, and is also a very good summary of my position:
Consider the fact that the uniformity of experience of people around the world has been that once a human limb has been amputated, it does not grow back. What would you think if a friend of yours, a scientist of the highest integrity with a Ph.D. in physics from Harvard, were to tell you that she was off in Spain last summer and met a man who used to have no legs but now walks on two fine, healthy limbs. She tells you that a holy man rubbed oil on his stumps and his legs grew back. He lives in a small village and all the villagers attest to this "miracle." Your friend is convinced a miracle occurred. What would you believe? To believe in this miracle would be to reject the principle of the uniformity of experience, upon which laws of nature are based. It would be to reject a fundamental assumption of all science, that the laws of nature are inviolate. The miracle cannot be believed without abandoning a basic principle of empirical knowledge: that like things under like circumstances produce like results. Of course there is another constant, another product of uniform experience which should not be forgotten: the tendency of people at all times in all ages to desire wondrous events, to be deluded about them, to fabricate them, create them, embellish them, enhance them, and come to believe in the absolute truth of the creations of their own passions and heated imaginations. Does this mean that miracles cannot occur? Of course not. It means, however, that when a miracle is reported the probability will always be greater that the person doing the reporting is mistaken, deluded or a fraud than that the miracle really occurred. To believe in a miracle, as Hume said, is not an act of reason but of faith. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-07-2006 03:24 PM
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