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Author | Topic: Nature and the fall of man | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4138 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
the problem is RR , that christians see god as being all good, I read orginally the jews attributed all good and bad acts to god, so a world where bad things happen to people would be inline to the hewbrew beliefs in god,
it wasn't until duality because popular with people that you get this incompatibilty with god being all good yet have all this bad stuff that happens that you see people invent the fall.. they had no answer to it, so they made it man's fault rather than realizing that god controls both good and evil its basically making god limited, "god is all powerful but can't do evil things so it must have been our fault!"
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
A Christian belief that does not include a Fall in which nature degenerated has no explanation for the arbitrary cruelty of Nature. There is no reason to believe in a Loving God. The evidence points to no God. On the other hand, the evidence for evolution points to no Fall (in the above sense). If no Fall, then no God. You cut right to the heart of the matter. But maybe you mean If no Fall, no GOOD God.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
But maybe you mean If no Fall, no GOOD God.
It is literalism that brings you no GOOD God. According to literalism, God went on a murderous spree at the time of Noah, in which he destroyed most life on earth. It was so BAD, that God had to promise that He would never do anything so evil again, and he invented the rainbow (Gen 9:11-15) as part of this promise. According to literalism, God turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt for nothing that she did (Gen 19:26). According to literalism, God mercilously punished the egyptian people because of what was due to God's own act of hardening the heart of Pharaoh (Exo 7:3-4).
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
It is more in the line that God has provided the opportunity for man to be bad, and to make bad choices.. and therefore, by being good, and making good choices they can lead a sanctfied life and become closer to God.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
You cut right to the heart of the matter. But maybe you mean If no Fall, no GOOD God. I was dismissing the idea of a bad God. Nobody believes in that.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Big jump. I would say if no Fall, then faulty tradition. The Fall is necessary for the Christian religion, not necessarily all other religions or for the existance of a God. There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I'm not even sure that the Fall is necessary for Christianity.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I was dismissing the idea of a bad God. Nobody believes in that. Yes, but if you don't say it you get the answer some around here like to give, that there's no problem with the idea of God, we simply have to realize that God is a cruel tyrant.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
You are showing the contradiction that was best put in the words of Epicurus, in about 300 b.c.
quote:
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Epicurus was like most of humanity, incapable of seeing the inherent flaw in ourselves that explains it all.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Rev, the bad things occur in the Law as a result of sin and rebellion. I don't see any difference whatsoever.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I'm not even sure that the Fall is necessary for Christianity To tell you the truth, I've just about convinced myself that if evolution is true, there is no God, and if evolution is not true, there has to be a God.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Punishing sin is part of justice. I think the issue is a little more complicated, as Jesus indicated when he said "Except you repent, you shall all likewise perish." But the New Testament does not try to negate acts of judgement from God, nor do most Christians think God never unleashes judgment.
At the same time, there is more to it than that. There is also a sense that God must be impartial, and so God's judgment is not so much an emotional response as indicated in some passages although not negating the "wrath of the Lord" but also in some sense a working of divine law. In other words, some depictions of God are to some extent anthropomorphic, and so may obscure a more complicated and whole depiction of God, which one gets from reading the whole Bible in the light of Jesus as the embodiment of the Godhead; (Jesus is what God is like).
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
nwr, your claim does not stand. You have offered nothing but bare assertion that it is a 20th century invention and then want to waste our time looking up references.
Prove your claim or retract it, please. Prove it was a 20th century invention. You cannot because it was not.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Why must one negate the other?
There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton
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