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Author Topic:   Nature and the fall of man
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 91 of 300 (273750)
12-29-2005 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by robinrohan
12-28-2005 2:05 PM


Re: the Fall and the existence of God
the problem is RR , that christians see god as being all good, I read orginally the jews attributed all good and bad acts to god, so a world where bad things happen to people would be inline to the hewbrew beliefs in god,
it wasn't until duality because popular with people that you get this incompatibilty with god being all good yet have all this bad stuff that happens that you see people invent the fall.. they had no answer to it, so they made it man's fault rather than realizing that god controls both good and evil
its basically making god limited, "god is all powerful but can't do evil things so it must have been our fault!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by robinrohan, posted 12-28-2005 2:05 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 101 by randman, posted 12-29-2005 12:36 PM ReverendDG has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 92 of 300 (273752)
12-29-2005 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by robinrohan
12-28-2005 2:05 PM


Re: the Fall and the existence of God
A Christian belief that does not include a Fall in which nature degenerated has no explanation for the arbitrary cruelty of Nature. There is no reason to believe in a Loving God. The evidence points to no God.
On the other hand, the evidence for evolution points to no Fall (in the above sense).
If no Fall, then no God.
You cut right to the heart of the matter. But maybe you mean If no Fall, no GOOD God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by robinrohan, posted 12-28-2005 2:05 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 95 by robinrohan, posted 12-29-2005 9:03 AM Faith has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 93 of 300 (273772)
12-29-2005 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
12-29-2005 3:56 AM


Re: the Fall and the existence of God
But maybe you mean If no Fall, no GOOD God.
It is literalism that brings you no GOOD God.
According to literalism, God went on a murderous spree at the time of Noah, in which he destroyed most life on earth. It was so BAD, that God had to promise that He would never do anything so evil again, and he invented the rainbow (Gen 9:11-15) as part of this promise.
According to literalism, God turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt for nothing that she did (Gen 19:26).
According to literalism, God mercilously punished the egyptian people because of what was due to God's own act of hardening the heart of Pharaoh (Exo 7:3-4).

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Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 94 of 300 (273776)
12-29-2005 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by ReverendDG
12-29-2005 3:22 AM


Re: the Fall and the existence of God
It is more in the line that God has provided the opportunity for man to be bad, and to make bad choices.. and therefore, by being good, and making good choices they can lead a sanctfied life and become closer to God.

This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 300 (273777)
12-29-2005 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
12-29-2005 3:56 AM


Re: the Fall and the existence of God
You cut right to the heart of the matter. But maybe you mean If no Fall, no GOOD God.
I was dismissing the idea of a bad God. Nobody believes in that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 12-29-2005 3:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 12-29-2005 11:01 AM robinrohan has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 96 of 300 (273798)
12-29-2005 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by robinrohan
12-28-2005 2:05 PM


If no Fall
quote:
If no Fall, then no God.
Big jump.
I would say if no Fall, then faulty tradition.
The Fall is necessary for the Christian religion, not necessarily all other religions or for the existance of a God.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

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 Message 77 by robinrohan, posted 12-28-2005 2:05 PM robinrohan has not replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 300 (273800)
12-29-2005 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by purpledawn
12-29-2005 10:09 AM


Re: If no Fall
I'm not even sure that the Fall is necessary for Christianity.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 98 of 300 (273808)
12-29-2005 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by robinrohan
12-29-2005 9:03 AM


Re: the Fall and the existence of God
I was dismissing the idea of a bad God. Nobody believes in that.
Yes, but if you don't say it you get the answer some around here like to give, that there's no problem with the idea of God, we simply have to realize that God is a cruel tyrant.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 99 by ramoss, posted 12-29-2005 11:49 AM Faith has replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 99 of 300 (273821)
12-29-2005 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
12-29-2005 11:01 AM


Re: the Fall and the existence of God
You are showing the contradiction that was best put in the words of Epicurus, in about 300 b.c.
quote:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? When why call him God?"
--Epicurus (341 - 270 BC)

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 Message 98 by Faith, posted 12-29-2005 11:01 AM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 100 of 300 (273822)
12-29-2005 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by ramoss
12-29-2005 11:49 AM


Re: the Fall and the existence of God
Epicurus was like most of humanity, incapable of seeing the inherent flaw in ourselves that explains it all.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 101 of 300 (273832)
12-29-2005 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ReverendDG
12-29-2005 3:22 AM


Re: the Fall and the existence of God
Rev, the bad things occur in the Law as a result of sin and rebellion. I don't see any difference whatsoever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ReverendDG, posted 12-29-2005 3:22 AM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by ReverendDG, posted 12-29-2005 1:57 PM randman has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 300 (273835)
12-29-2005 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
12-29-2005 10:11 AM


Re: If no Fall
I'm not even sure that the Fall is necessary for Christianity
To tell you the truth, I've just about convinced myself that if evolution is true, there is no God, and if evolution is not true, there has to be a God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 12-29-2005 10:11 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by purpledawn, posted 12-29-2005 1:05 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 131 by lfen, posted 12-29-2005 7:22 PM robinrohan has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 103 of 300 (273836)
12-29-2005 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by nwr
12-29-2005 8:44 AM


Re: the Fall and the existence of God
Punishing sin is part of justice. I think the issue is a little more complicated, as Jesus indicated when he said "Except you repent, you shall all likewise perish." But the New Testament does not try to negate acts of judgement from God, nor do most Christians think God never unleashes judgment.
At the same time, there is more to it than that. There is also a sense that God must be impartial, and so God's judgment is not so much an emotional response as indicated in some passages although not negating the "wrath of the Lord" but also in some sense a working of divine law.
In other words, some depictions of God are to some extent anthropomorphic, and so may obscure a more complicated and whole depiction of God, which one gets from reading the whole Bible in the light of Jesus as the embodiment of the Godhead; (Jesus is what God is like).

This message is a reply to:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 104 of 300 (273838)
12-29-2005 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by nwr
12-26-2005 6:39 PM


Re: A 20th century invention?
nwr, your claim does not stand. You have offered nothing but bare assertion that it is a 20th century invention and then want to waste our time looking up references.
Prove your claim or retract it, please.
Prove it was a 20th century invention.
You cannot because it was not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by nwr, posted 12-26-2005 6:39 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by nwr, posted 12-29-2005 1:24 PM randman has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 105 of 300 (273846)
12-29-2005 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by robinrohan
12-29-2005 12:36 PM


Re: If no Fall
Why must one negate the other?

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by robinrohan, posted 12-29-2005 12:36 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by robinrohan, posted 12-29-2005 1:26 PM purpledawn has replied

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