Look, I am talking very basic stuff with you, and you are acting like you never heard it. It's like someone that doesn't recognize there is a difference between the terms, analogous and homologous in an evolution debate. It's really not my fault you don't know a minimal amount of theology in this area.
Here are some links to various theologians or schools of theology that might be helpful.
some historic documents relating to the Reformed tradition
Augsburg confession
Article II: Of Original Sin.
Also they teach that since the fall of Adam all men begotten in the natural way are born with sin, that is, without the fear of God, without trust in God, and with concupiscence; and that this disease, or vice of origin, is truly sin, even now condemning and bringing eternal death upon those not born again through Baptism and the Holy Ghost.
They Condemn the Pelagians and others who deny that original depravity is sin, and who, to obscure the glory of Christ's merit and benefits, argue that man can be justified before God by his own strength and reason.
The Augsburg Confession
from the 39 Articles
IX. Of originall or birth sinne.
Originall sinne standeth not in the folowing of Adam (as the Pelagians do vaynely talke) but it is the fault and corruption of the nature of euery man, that naturally is engendred of the ofspring of Adam, whereby man is very farre gone from originall ryghteousnes, and is of his owne nature enclined to euyll, so that the fleshe lusteth alwayes contrary to the spirite, and therefore in euery person borne into this worlde, it deserueth Gods wrath and damnation. And this infection of nature doth remayne, yea in them that are regenerated, whereby the luste of the fleshe called in Greke fronema sarkos (whiche some do expoune, the wisedome, some sensualitie, some
the desyre of the fleshe) is not subject to the lawe of God. And although there is no condemnation for them that beleue and are baptized: yet the Apostle doth confesse that concupiscence and luste hath of it selfe the nature of synne.
he Thirty-Nine Articles (1572)
from The Belgic Confession
Article 15: The Doctrine of Original Sin
We believe that by the disobedience of Adam original sin has been spread through the whole human race.
It is a corruption of all nature-- an inherited depravity which even infects small infants in their mother's womb, and the root which produces in man every sort of sin. It is therefore so vile and enormous in God's sight that it is enough to condemn the human race, and it is not abolished or wholly uprooted even by baptism, seeing that sin constantly boils forth as though from a contaminated spring.
Nevertheless, it is not imputed to God's children for their condemnation but is forgiven by his grace and mercy-- not to put them to sleep but so that the awareness of this corruption might often make believers groan as they long to be set free from the "body of this death."^30
Therefore we reject the error of the Pelagians who say that this sin is nothing else than a matter of imitation.
The Belgic Confession
Ok, let's look at Arminianism which from an outsider's perspective is Calvinistic and Reformed as well, but which deviates from some of the more pronounced versions of Calvinism.
from the wika, always to be taken with a grain of salt though
Free Will with Partial Depravity: Freedom of will is man's natural state, not a spiritual gift - and thus free will was not lost in the Fall, .... As John Wesley stated more forcefully, humans were in fact totally corrupted by original sin, but God's prevenient grace allowed free will to operate. Contra the Calvinist view of depravity which denies universal prevenient grace and moral ability to turn to Christ.
One of the articles of the Arminians which Reformed theologigians condemned as heresy because Reformed theology states Christ only died for the elect's sins not the sins of the whole world.
Article 2
That agreeably thereunto, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
403 Forbidden
A reaction from Reformed theologians.
The system of doctrine known as Arminianism is heresy. It is an offshoot from Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism. It has been adversely affecting the church and its doctrine for over 250 years. Men like Finney and Wesley, being the charismatic personalities they were, propagated the doctrine and resurrected the Pelagian error from the pit of hell once again to persecute the church of Christ.
403 Forbidden
Note the references to Wesley who clearly states he believes in Original Sin, but since the Arminian version is not the same as the Reformed version, the Reformed camp says there are heretics, or used to (some obviously still do).
But either way, both camps hold to Original Sin, and in many respects both are Calvinistic.
Note also the references to Pelagius who had a big dispute with Augustine, and was consequently misrepresented imo, being branded a heretic falsely.
http://www.brojed.org/pelagius.html#Text
Just so you know, in general, I think the heretic thing in the Church is wrongheaded. I think Pelagius did overemphasize free will, but to call him a heretic is over-reaching and to call for persecution as Augustine did is completely against the Spirit of Christ, imo.
This message has been edited by randman, 12-30-2005 12:36 AM
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