Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Nature and the fall of man
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 166 of 300 (274258)
12-30-2005 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Faith
12-30-2005 4:00 PM


Re: Original Sin or the original sin
Hi F,
After God had made all other creatures, he created man male and female;
I don't think this is what the oldest creation myth (Gen.2) says.
It clearly says that Adam was created first:
Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Adam was created first, and was so lonely that God finally realised how stupid He had been and:
2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Only then were animals were created. After Adam had made love to a female of all the different animals, and found none of them suitable: 2:20 but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. (I heard that Miss Hamster 4500 BCE had a particularly nasty interview), God decided to make him a more suitable partner.
It is only after God created animals that He decided to create Eve, keeping in mind that He created Adam before the animals.
I know the other creation myth has a different order of creation, but that myth is addressing a different issue.
formed the body of the man of the dust of the ground, and the woman of the rib of the man
Eve must have been about 4 inches tall if she was made from a rib.
endued them with living, reasonable, and immortal souls; made them after his own image, in knowledge, righteousness,and holiness; having the law of God written in their hearts, and power to fulfil it,
Your own opinion.
and dominion over the creatures;
Biblical.
yet subject to fall.
Your own opinion.
It is interesting that Eve was created third, even lower than an animal, it sure explains the exploitation of women for centuries by loving Christians.
The Fall is a philosophical tale, used to explain where suffering came from, don't confuse it with actual history.
Brian.
This message has been edited by Brian, 12-30-2005 05:22 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 12-30-2005 4:00 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by lfen, posted 12-30-2005 6:45 PM Brian has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 167 of 300 (274268)
12-30-2005 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Brian
12-30-2005 5:13 PM


Re: Original Sin or the original sin
The Fall is a philosophical tale, used to explain where suffering came from, don't confuse it with actual history.
Brian,
Faith is not the only fundamentalist (I am using the term to include the few Muslims literalist who have posted here as well as Mormon and I don't know who else)to read the old books as absolutely literally true.
I'm not sure those who passed the traditions along or the scribes who wrote believed it was true in the sense that modern history understands the term. But it doesn't matter. There are millions of people it appears who can live today and yet mentally prefer the old beliefs and take them to be literally true. Amazing but I've read enough here on the forum to believe it that it happens a lot more than I would have thought.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Brian, posted 12-30-2005 5:13 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 12-30-2005 8:02 PM lfen has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 168 of 300 (274277)
12-30-2005 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by lfen
12-30-2005 6:45 PM


What does it take to believe "the old beliefs?"
There are millions of people it appears who can live today and yet mentally prefer the old beliefs and take them to be literally true. Amazing but I've read enough here on the forum to believe it that it happens a lot more than I would have thought.
Yes, and we're even sane productive members of society! Ain't that a grabber!
When I first believed, it was far from anything I could ever have imagined believing for most of my life until then. I had had all the same prejudices the unbelievers here have. But I would never have settled for the intellectualized pseudofaith of the sort that some settle for and argue for at EvC. That's a far worse misuse of the human mind than even atheism is. The truth, the real truth, the real-real true truth, is far stranger and more wonderful than can enter the mind of the modern rationalist -- without causing some internal breakage at least. Caused a lot in my case. Rearranged the entire inner landscape. Some ridicule it as believing in fairytales. Well, that's how it hit me too when I did believe it, as a fairytale come true, but waaaaaay bigger than a fairytale. But come true.
Brian has no clue. He ridicules what he does not know.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-30-2005 08:05 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by lfen, posted 12-30-2005 6:45 PM lfen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by crashfrog, posted 12-30-2005 8:53 PM Faith has replied
 Message 180 by Brian, posted 12-31-2005 4:37 PM Faith has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 169 of 300 (274285)
12-30-2005 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
12-30-2005 8:02 PM


Re: What does it take to believe "the old beliefs?"
Well, that's how it hit me too when I did believe it, as a fairytale come true, but waaaaaay bigger than a fairytale. But come true.
If I may ask, how did it come true for you? I've been through quite a bit of crap in my life, and I expect to go through a lot more, but I can't imagine going through anything so bad or so weird or even so lucky that it would cause me to see the "truth" in the Christian fables.
Prediction: you'll tell me to stuff it, but I am actually genuinely curious. I realize there's probably no act you would presume too low of me, but I do draw the line at the ridicule of a person's individual faith narrative.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 12-30-2005 8:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 12-30-2005 9:36 PM crashfrog has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 170 of 300 (274289)
12-30-2005 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by crashfrog
12-30-2005 8:53 PM


Re: What does it take to believe "the old beliefs?"
If I may ask, how did it come true for you? I've been through quite a bit of crap in my life, and I expect to go through a lot more, but I can't imagine going through anything so bad or so weird or even so lucky that it would cause me to see the "truth" in the Christian fables.
Prediction: you'll tell me to stuff it, but I am actually genuinely curious. I realize there's probably no act you would presume too low of me, but I do draw the line at the ridicule of a person's individual faith narrative.
Well, thank you. I appreciate that. When I saw your name on the thread I have to admit my first thought was Oh no, I'm not up to this, and I left the site for a while.
The phrase "come true FOR YOU" misses the point. I simply realized that it IS true. Had nothing whatever to do with anything in my own life, good stuff, bad stuff, weirdness, lucky or unlucky. Nothing whatever. Nothing in particular changed as far as all the ordinary ups and downs of life go. Maybe it got rather worse if anything.
It's just that the gospel itself, if you really believe it, is a fairy tale come true. It's an astonishing revelation to the rationalist mind that the supernatural realities of the Bible are really really true. That's all I meant. Likening it to a fairy tale can demean it, but I only mean to say that it involves a whole Reality that the normal rationalist mentality just can't begin to take seriously. Could also liken it to winning the lottery or something on that scale. But that too can demean it. "Fairy tale come true" gets at the incredible differentness of what it promises from what the world usually tries to get by living on. Future perfection. Future eternal happiness. {Oh and present joy too}
Sorry I can't give you any new approaches to believing it. I didn't expect to believe it. I just found myself believing it, and everything changed fro that point on.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-30-2005 09:38 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-30-2005 09:43 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by crashfrog, posted 12-30-2005 8:53 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by crashfrog, posted 12-31-2005 2:59 AM Faith has not replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 171 of 300 (274312)
12-31-2005 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Faith
12-30-2005 3:40 PM


Re: If no Fall
i believe Buddha answers this topic , he says suffering is caused by people wanting things they can't have, so it causes suffering within and without, This is what i at least have read about buddhism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 12-30-2005 3:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 1:44 AM ReverendDG has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 172 of 300 (274319)
12-31-2005 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by ReverendDG
12-31-2005 12:53 AM


Re: If no Fall
OK, yes, that sounds right, but the Bible says that wanting things we can't have is sin, brought about by the Fall. Saying suffering is caused by this covetousness, again, doesn't explain much, but the Fall does. It says how we got into this corrupted state where we are out of tune with everything, egocentric, desiring things we can't have, committing sin against our neighbor and against God.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-31-2005 01:45 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by ReverendDG, posted 12-31-2005 12:53 AM ReverendDG has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by nwr, posted 12-31-2005 7:32 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 189 by robinrohan, posted 01-01-2006 9:56 PM Faith has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 173 of 300 (274331)
12-31-2005 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by LinearAq
12-30-2005 9:59 AM


Re: If no Fall
By what criteria do you make this judgement?
By my criteria.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by LinearAq, posted 12-30-2005 9:59 AM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by LinearAq, posted 01-02-2006 8:41 AM robinrohan has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 174 of 300 (274332)
12-31-2005 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
12-30-2005 9:36 PM


Re: What does it take to believe "the old beliefs?"
Well, I appreciate you telling me. It doesn't make any sense to me, but I appreciate the effort.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 12-30-2005 9:36 PM Faith has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 175 of 300 (274352)
12-31-2005 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
12-31-2005 1:44 AM


Wanting things we can't have
OK, yes, that sounds right, but the Bible says that wanting things we can't have is sin, brought about by the Fall.
I don't think that's correct.
Surely the sin is when you covet your neighbor's possession.
When my son, at that time about 4, wanted a cowboy outfit and his parents said he couldn't have one, surely that was not sin. He wasn't wanting the particular cowboy suit that a neighbor's child had. He was just feeling peer pressure, and wanted something similar enough.

Impeach Bush

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 1:44 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Funkaloyd, posted 12-31-2005 7:54 AM nwr has not replied

Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 300 (274354)
12-31-2005 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by nwr
12-31-2005 7:32 AM


Re: Wanting things we can't have
Sounds a lot like envy to me.
...Which is probably why I pretty much dismiss the concept of sin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by nwr, posted 12-31-2005 7:32 AM nwr has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 177 of 300 (274374)
12-31-2005 11:01 AM


The Fall is a handy cop-out
The ideas of the Fall and Original Sin are but marvelous cop-outs. It's a way of saying "It's not my fault, Adam & Eve did it." The Fall and Original Sin are nothing more than a comfort blanket to allow folk to dodge responsibility and not have to deal with the Harder issues of "What can we do about it?"
When we look at life though, we simply don't see signs of either the Fall or Original Sin. People today live longer that at any time in history. We can recognize and cure more deseases then ever before. We are beginning to learn enough that hopefully soon, even birth defects will be a thing of the past.
We are beginning to understand even Natural Events. While we are still far from being able to control them, we are getting better and better at predicting them so that we can protect lives. We are also learning ways to build structures to withstand natural events and to minimize even property loss.
For the first time in history we are also beginning to do what Adam was suposed to be doing, taking care of the garden. Efforts like the Endangered Species List, Conservation, Environmental Protection Laws, efforts such as the Occupational Protection and Health Administration undertake are steps towards becoming the stewards GOD charged us to become.
It's been a long path. Humans ain't all that bright. We be slow learners. But maybe, just maybe, we are beginning to understand the messages from Genesis, and they are not about a Fall or Original Sin. The messages of Genesis are that we do know right from wrong, we are charged to try to do right, and we are expected by GOD to be good stewards of this Earth.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 12:13 PM jar has replied
 Message 183 by Rrhain, posted 01-01-2006 3:59 AM jar has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 178 of 300 (274395)
12-31-2005 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by jar
12-31-2005 11:01 AM


Far from a cop-out
Considering that we are "under the wrath of God" on account of the sin nature we inherit from Adam, and that this will be our lot for eternity plus our own personal sins added to it, the Fall can hardly be said to be a cop-out.
Funny, YOU may not see signs of either the Fall or Original Sin when YOU look at life, but when I finally got a grip on the idea myself, I considered it as great a revelation as the revelation of the reality of God Himself. To my mind it "explains everything," all the misery of human history, all the diseases, the wars, the cruelties of every kind, man-caused and nature-caused, and death itself.
That we now have a few answers, a few solutions, to some of the misery, is God's blessing, as salvation is always about mitigating the effects of and finally overturning the Fall itself, and the West in particular has been blessed with such solutions. Must be because of our illustrious Christian past. Our Christian present is nothing to brag about, and I expect eventually we'll lose the blessings as a result.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by jar, posted 12-31-2005 11:01 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by jar, posted 12-31-2005 12:33 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 179 of 300 (274400)
12-31-2005 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Faith
12-31-2005 12:13 PM


Re: Far from a cop-out
Considering that we are "under the wrath of God" on account of the sin nature we inherit from Adam, and that this will be our lot for eternity plus our own personal sins added to it, the Fall can hardly be said to be a cop-out.
Yes, as I said, it's just a cop out. Many folk believe as you do that there is this wrath of God on acount of Adam did it. It's not their fault, it's built into the system.
Well, I don't buy that and if you read Genesis, there is no support for it either. No Fall, no Original Sin.
Funny, YOU may not see signs of either the Fall or Original Sin when YOU look at life, but when I finally got a grip on the idea myself, I considered it as great a revelation as the revelation of the reality of God Himself. To my mind it "explains everything," all the misery of human history, all the diseases, the wars, the cruelties of every kind, man-caused and nature-caused, and death itself.
Yup, many people believe as you do. I just don't buy it. Why look beyond what actually causes suffering? Suffering is caused by a lack of knowledge and a lack of commitment to do what GOD and Jesus has told us to do, try to do what is right.
GOD gave us a brain and he expects us to use it. He expects us to work to solve the problems, not to bemoan some imaginary Fall.
That we now have a few answers, a few solutions, to some of the misery, is God's blessing, as salvation is always about mitigating the effects of and finally overturning the Fall itself, and the West in particular has been blessed with such solutions.
Yes, and no. The Blessing is our brains and the ability to use them. Salvation is something that has been freely given to ALL mankind, not to Christians, but to everyone.
Must be because of our illustrious Christian past.
IMHO, the Christian past shows little to be proud of, a few shinning moments in an otherwise bleak landscape of intolerance and oppression. The improvements only come about when mankind throws off the shackles of dogma and actually uses the brain GOD gave us.
Our Christian present is nothing to brag about, and I expect eventually we'll lose the blessings as a result.
Right now you are right. Christianity is certainly more threatened today than at anytime in the past. Groups like the televagelists, the 700 Club, ACLJ, preachers like Robertson, Falwell, Hodges, Phelps and the like are the greatest threat to Christianity and the world we've seen in a long, long time. Movements such as the Creationist and ID proponents threaten to throw us back into the darkness and away from the light.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 12:13 PM Faith has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 180 of 300 (274446)
12-31-2005 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
12-30-2005 8:02 PM


Re: What does it take to believe "the old beliefs?"
Brian has no clue. He ridicules what he does not know.
I know it will take a few years, but come back when you graduate from Sunday School.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 12-30-2005 8:02 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 4:54 PM Brian has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024